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Isang Tanong Isang Sagot (ITIS)...

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Post by Jewel Mon Jul 19, 2010 4:17 pm

Yidda wrote:Jewel, you mis-read my question!

Can a christian man marry a Muslim woman and still adhere in christian faith?

or Is it allowed in Islam such marriage? Muslim women and Christian man without converting to Islam?


I think i clearly said NO, didnt I? - Such marriage can not take place in Islam. if you ask Why? please read my rationale above.


Thanks.
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Post by Jewel Mon Jul 19, 2010 4:18 pm

element_115x wrote:Question:
What would it take for a Muslim and a Christian to unify their beliefs?

Thanks!

Qur'an 3:64 Surah Ale-'Imran (The Family
of 'Imran)


Say: "O people of the Book! come to common
terms as between us and you: that we worship none but Allah; that we
associate no partners with Him; that we erect not from among ourselves
Lords and patrons other than Allah."
If then they turn back say:
"Bear witness that we (at least) are Muslims (bowing to Allah's will).
"



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Post by element_115x Mon Jul 19, 2010 4:35 pm

Jewel wrote:
element_115x wrote:Question:
What would it take for a Muslim and a Christian to unify their beliefs?

Thanks!

Qur'an 3:64 Surah Ale-'Imran (The Family
of 'Imran)


Say: "O people of the Book! come to common
terms as between us and you: that we worship none but Allah; that we
associate no partners with Him; that we erect not from among ourselves
Lords and patrons other than Allah."
If then they turn back say:
"Bear witness that we (at least) are Muslims (bowing to Allah's will).
"



Thanks

Ok... So basically, the Christians have it wrong and they have been misguided?

Thanks.

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Post by Jewel Mon Jul 19, 2010 4:40 pm

element_115x wrote:
Jewel wrote:
element_115x wrote:Question:
What would it take for a Muslim and a Christian to unify their beliefs?

Thanks!

Qur'an 3:64 Surah Ale-'Imran (The Family
of 'Imran)


Say: "O people of the Book! come to common
terms as between us and you: that we worship none but Allah; that we
associate no partners with Him; that we erect not from among ourselves
Lords and patrons other than Allah."
If then they turn back say:
"Bear witness that we (at least) are Muslims (bowing to Allah's will).
"



Thanks

Ok... So basically, the Christians have it wrong and they have been misguided?

Thanks.


Yes! because they worship something along with God and they even elevated that something/someone as God himself. God and his creation is not the same. The unlimited creator cant be a limited creation yet remains unlimited both at the same time - thats illogical and weird, but God is not illogical and God is not the author of confusion.


Thanks
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Post by vril Tue Jul 20, 2010 9:56 am

vril wrote:

Why destroy the scribes' version when they were the ones whom Mohammed assigned to write on leaves?

repost
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Post by Ateo Tue Jul 20, 2010 10:08 am

Vril, I've been studying the Islamic history since I joined BARM. The part where Uthman destroyed all original manuscripts is what really stumped me. They seem to be so valuable.
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Post by vril Tue Jul 20, 2010 11:42 am

Ateo wrote:Vril, I've been studying the Islamic history since I joined BARM. The part where Uthman destroyed all original manuscripts is what really stumped me. They seem to be so valuable.

Hi Ateo,

Which makes Qu'ran just like any other scriptures, subjected to human manipulation, compiled to suit political whims of those in control.

There were so many traditions that were in conflict as to how the Qu'ran become a written text. Traditions that question authenticity.

The question is, are god's book supposed to be like these? Revelations passed on to a favorite character then allowed to be corrupted. god should have thought of something foolproof. A way to send his message free from corruption.

What also puzzles me is does god really need a book so man can know him, his plans, his love, his tantrums, etc? Like I am father and I dont need a book to tell my daughter what is good and what is bad and that I set examples for her to follow in dealing with other people. I don't need to write a book to make her remember.

How to deal with life does not need a manual or a book. Morals are learned through others and those around you.

Our brains are capable of storing experiences and that is enough to make us remember not to do bad unto others. Like if I touch a fire, immediately the pain experience will be stored in my brain and keep it there until I die. I dont have to be reminded by other people not to touch a fire.

Pain has been man's greatest social teacher.

I hope I'm making sense. Please correct me if I'm wrong.




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Post by Ateo Tue Jul 20, 2010 11:55 am

Yes, you are making sense, Vril. I also felt that if I were God, I would send my message so it will appear magically on all church walls in exact duplicates. Then anybody who will try to change a dot or a tittle will be zapped to bits. It has automatic translators and it updates automatically if the meaning of the word changes. When you click a button, an angel appear and explains the meaning to you. (It has thousands of other features, after all, I am all-powerful.). But sending it in tortured language and missing manuscripts would not be my style. My preface would say, "I am your God, and I hate hermeneutics and exegesis.".

Now, on your other point on giving an analogy of your relationship with your daughter, that would be how I behave if I were God. I would remain available. No prophets, angels, or sons for me. I will come myself. I will sit beside the pastor/imam/priest in every house of worship (did I say that I could be everywhere?) and I will smile at the worshippers gently as the service progresses along. Oh, I will also zap every other God; I won't rely on my faithful to do that. I will subject myself to the scientific tests of the atheist scientists and comply to all rigorous test of my existence. That way, Man is properly guided and not left hanging and confused. I am God after all and I love my humans.
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Post by Jewel Tue Jul 20, 2010 1:23 pm

vril wrote:

repost

No, you got it wrong; it was not destroying the scribe's version, because there is no such thing as scribe's version of the Quran? One mistake of words could make a lot of mess so be careful of your words when dealing with Islam because Islam is not like any another religion.


All scribe's copy has already been codified as one book and they have it completed during the time of the first caliph Abubakr. So the Qur'an has already been compiled/codified in a complete form long time ago before the third caliph Uthman.

What you are talking about is a later event when those disciples taught in different places in the Islamic world the different ways of reciting the Qur'an because the Quran was revealed in 7 ahruf. Because of this boasting of the way of recitation, one of the disciples suggested to the caliph that time (Uthman - the third caliph) because new Muslims are confused.

So what Uthman did was to reproduce copies of the codified Quran during Abubakr's time and have it distributed to the big cities of Islam like Syria, Iraq, ect. He also ordered that all personal copies shall be burned so that the completely codified Quran will be the only way of reciting the Quran because it is the language of Prophet Muhammad (Qurayshi accent), to which all the leaders and major disciples unanimously agree.

So please, dont attack strawman, it wont work here. The history of the Quran is so clear for us and we are always reading it, so forget about making us confused because we wouldnt be confused.

What Islamic source did you read BTW
? or you are just saying what you heard from unauthentic sources or hearsay?


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Post by Amigo Tue Jul 20, 2010 2:06 pm

First question... may mga version po ba ang Quran?
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Post by Jewel Tue Jul 20, 2010 2:16 pm

Amigo wrote:First question... may mga version po ba ang Quran?

Wala po.

Salamat sa tanong Isang Tanong Isang Sagot (ITIS)... - Page 2 Icon_smile
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Post by Amigo Tue Jul 20, 2010 2:35 pm

Ang mga muslim po ba ay may mga denomination? Iyong tipong mga muslim may ibang interpretation sa Quran... Kung meron puede po bang ibigay ang list nitong mga denomination na ito?
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Post by Jewel Tue Jul 20, 2010 2:39 pm

Amigo wrote:Ang mga muslim po ba ay may mga denomination? Iyong tipong mga muslim may ibang interpretation sa Quran... Kung meron puede po bang ibigay ang list nitong mga denomination na ito?

meron, research mo nalang sa net kasi masyadong malawak ang usapin tungkol dyan. google it.
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Post by Ateo Tue Jul 20, 2010 3:15 pm

Ang isang Kristyano ay pwede bang makipagrelasyon na isang Muslim?
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Post by harballah Tue Jul 20, 2010 4:01 pm

Ateo wrote:Ang isang Kristyano ay pwede bang makipagrelasyon na isang Muslim?

Ano ang ibig mong sabihin kapatid, lalaking kristiyano sa babaeng Muslim o babaeng kristiyano sa lalaking muslim, paki-klaro lang po ang tanong.


May sagot na pala si Jewel diyan.


Jewel wrote:

The answer is no due to conflict prevention and possible broken family.

The husband is the head of the family so he is the leader that must be obeyed at all times except when what he orders is against the law of God.


For a christian man, eating pork is okey for him - so, will the Muslim wife cook it for him? I dont think so - conflict, trouble.

For a christian man, singing, dancing, in public, ect is okey for him - will the Muslim wife dance and sing with him in public? I dont think so

The bottom line is that there are many stuff which are okay for a Christian man BUT forbidden for a Muslim woman, while the hierarchy is that the woman should obey her husband - so conflicts after conflicts.


On the otherhand, if the husband is a Muslim while the wife is a Christian, there would be no conflict because if the husband says "There should be NO Pork here" - then that would not affect the wife's Christian faith. If the husband says " NO singing, No dancing in the public places" - No problem again because that would not affect the wife's christian faith.

I hope that I made my answer clear.


Thank you.
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Post by element_115x Tue Jul 20, 2010 7:27 pm

Jewel wrote:
No, you got it wrong; it was not destroying the scribe's version, because there is no such thing as scribe's version of the Quran? One mistake of words could make a lot of mess so be careful of your words when dealing with Islam because Islam is not like any another religion.


All scribe's copy has already been codified as one book and they have it completed during the time of the first caliph Abubakr. So the Qur'an has already been compiled/codified in a complete form long time ago before the third caliph Uthman....

So you guys are covering the Uthmanic Recension here... interesting. Smile By the way, are the words written on the published book exactly the same (verbatim) as the memorized one that goes back to earlier times?

Namaste!
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Post by Jewel Tue Jul 20, 2010 7:31 pm

element_115x wrote:So you guys are covering the Uthmanic Recension here... interesting. Smile By the way, are the words written on the published book exactly the same (verbatim) as the memorized one that goes back to earlier times? Namaste!


Covering?? didnt I discuss it clearly above?

Present you your (authentic) evidence bro Isang Tanong Isang Sagot (ITIS)... - Page 2 Icon_basketball
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Post by element_115x Tue Jul 20, 2010 7:39 pm

Jewel wrote:


Covering?? didnt I discuss it clearly above?

Present you your (authentic) evidence bro Isang Tanong Isang Sagot (ITIS)... - Page 2 Icon_basketball

Huh? scratch What i meant was @ateo and @vril are talking about it here.... is there another meaning for 'covering' i don't know about?
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Post by harballah Tue Jul 20, 2010 7:40 pm

element_115x wrote:So you guys are covering the Uthmanic Recension here... interesting. Isang Tanong Isang Sagot (ITIS)... - Page 2 Icon_smile By the way, are the words written on the published book exactly the same (verbatim) as the memorized one that goes back to earlier times?

Namaste!


Element, the words still intact starting from original manuscripts in the hands of abubakar then to Hafsa.


harballah wrote:

Volume 6, Book 61, Number 510:

Narrated Anas bin Malik: Hudhaifa bin Al-Yaman came to Uthman at the time when the people of Sham and the people of Iraq were Waging war to conquer Arminya and Adharbijan. Hudhaifa was afraid of their (the people of Sham and Iraq) differences in the recitation of the Qur'an, so he said to 'Uthman, "O chief of the Believers! Save this nation before they differ about the Book (Quran) as Jews and the Christians did before." So 'Uthman sent a message to Hafsa saying, "Send us the manuscripts of the Qur'an so that we may compile the Qur'anic materials in perfect copies and return the manuscripts to you." Hafsa sent it to 'Uthman. 'Uthman then ordered Zaid bin Thabit, 'Abdullah bin AzZubair, Said bin Al-As and 'Abdur Rahman bin Harith bin Hisham to rewrite the manuscripts in perfect copies. 'Uthman said to the three Quraishi men, "In case you disagree with Zaid bin Thabit on any point in the Qur'an, then write it in the dialect of Quraish, the Qur'an was revealed in their tongue." They did so, and when they had written many copies, 'Uthman returned the original manuscripts to Hafsa. 'Uthman sent to every Muslim province one copy of what they had copied, and ordered that all the other Qur'anic materials, whether written in fragmentary manuscripts or whole copies, be burnt. Said bin Thabit added, "A Verse from Surat Ahzab was missed by me when we copied the Qur'an and I used to hear Allah's Apostle reciting it. So we searched for it and found it with Khuzaima bin Thabit Al-Ansari. (That Verse was): 'Among the Believers are men who have been true in their covenant with Allah.' (33.23)


Thanks and peace!

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Post by element_115x Tue Jul 20, 2010 7:44 pm

Thanks bro Harballah for clearing that up. Smile So what they have memorized from earlier times is exactly the same word for word that was written... no changes or modifications made. Namaste!
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Post by Jewel Tue Jul 20, 2010 7:46 pm

element_115x wrote:

Huh? scratch What i meant was @ateo and @vril are talking about it here.... is there another meaning for 'covering' i don't know about?

Sorry, it was my misinterpretation:

I thot covering means to hide something or deny something.

Yes we are discussing/talking about their so-called Uthmanic recension - and I have given my initial response to their allegation.


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Post by Ateo Wed Jul 21, 2010 9:19 am

In history, the Wahhabis destroyed some significant sites of Islam such as the graves of some Companions. They even targetted the tomb of the prophet and succeeded to destroy the tomb markings.

Is Wahhabism, the dominant form of Islam in Saudi Arabia, a good force in Islam?
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Post by vril Wed Jul 21, 2010 10:18 am

Jewel wrote:

No, you got it wrong; it was not destroying the scribe's version, because there is no such thing as scribe's version of the Quran? One mistake of words could make a lot of mess so be careful of your words when dealing with Islam because Islam is not like any another religion.


All scribe's copy has already been codified as one book and they have it completed during the time of the first caliph Abubakr. So the Qur'an has already been compiled/codified in a complete form long time ago before the third caliph Uthman.

What you are talking about is a later event when those disciples taught in different places in the Islamic world the different ways of reciting the Qur'an because the Quran was revealed in 7 ahruf. Because of this boasting of the way of recitation, one of the disciples suggested to the caliph that time (Uthman - the third caliph) because new Muslims are confused.

So what Uthman did was to reproduce copies of the codified Quran during Abubakr's time and have it distributed to the big cities of Islam like Syria, Iraq, ect. He also ordered that all personal copies shall be burned so that the completely codified Quran will be the only way of reciting the Quran because it is the language of Prophet Muhammad (Qurayshi accent), to which all the leaders and major disciples unanimously agree.

So please, dont attack strawman, it wont work here. The history of the Quran is so clear for us and we are always reading it, so forget about making us confused because we wouldnt be confused.

What Islamic source did you read BTW
? or you are just saying what you heard from unauthentic sources or hearsay?


Thanks Isang Tanong Isang Sagot (ITIS)... - Page 2 Icon_arrow

Hi Jewel,

I'm not trying any strawman attack..lol. You seem to sound so defensive. Let me try and quote you on what you posted. Please remeber, I'm trying to understand the origins of Qu'ran, so please don't think I'm in anyway trying to confuse anybody.

Anyway, here is what I'm trying to ask.

you said: The Quran was written by Prophet Muhammad's scribes as soon as he receives any revelation.
You also said:
Caliph Uthman then saw the suggestion to be correct, he then COPIED the codified text during Abubakr's time which was then under the custody of Hafsa r.a. the prophet's wife, reproduced it and ordered that all personal copies written by the scribes who had gone to far places like Iraq shall be burned so that new Muslims will not get confused with the different way of recitations.

So it was your post that confuses me. Also, please clarify why were there different ways of reciting the Qu'ran and when you say ways of reciting, does this mean a different version?

TIA

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Post by vril Wed Jul 21, 2010 10:39 am

Ateo wrote:Yes, you are making sense, Vril. I also felt that if I were God, I would send my message so it will appear magically on all church walls in exact duplicates. Then anybody who will try to change a dot or a tittle will be zapped to bits. It has automatic translators and it updates automatically if the meaning of the word changes. When you click a button, an angel appear and explains the meaning to you. (It has thousands of other features, after all, I am all-powerful.). But sending it in tortured language and missing manuscripts would not be my style. My preface would say, "I am your God, and I hate hermeneutics and exegesis.".

Now, on your other point on giving an analogy of your relationship with your daughter, that would be how I behave if I were God. I would remain available. No prophets, angels, or sons for me. I will come myself. I will sit beside the pastor/imam/priest in every house of worship (did I say that I could be everywhere?) and I will smile at the worshippers gently as the service progresses along. Oh, I will also zap every other God; I won't rely on my faithful to do that. I will subject myself to the scientific tests of the atheist scientists and comply to all rigorous test of my existence. That way, Man is properly guided and not left hanging and confused. I am God after all and I love my humans.

exactly! Thanks for concurring Ateo. Incorruptible messages is not far-fetch for a god who is infinite and all-powerful!

Now because of these existing scriptures written by man (handed to a different set of men and compiled by yet another set of men) from different religions comes confusion which is the reason why god has been called the god of confusion.

All claiming to be the true religion and having received the true words of god, how can we reconcile each of them? Who is telling the truth? Now the big question comes in. Who is willing to believe that his religion is fake and that the true words of god was manifested to someone else? Will a christian willingly accept islam is the true religion and that everyone should worship Allah? Will a muslim willing accept that Jesus is the son of god and that salvation is only thru him?

What makes this division is enough to tell me that something is wrong. God belief is like diversity. Each of us are different. We all have unique qualities inherent to our culture. What works for us will not work for others. Just like taking a medicine.

The only way to resolve religion conflict is to accept human diversity and focus on the natural good traits and virtues of human beings. Love, compassion, empathy, charity, kindness. These do not need a deity to be able to be practiced. It's inherent to mankind.

Superiority of race, creed and religion is trouble.
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Post by element_115x Wed Jul 21, 2010 1:37 pm

vril wrote:...What makes this division is enough to tell me that something is wrong. God belief is like diversity. Each of us are different. We all have unique qualities inherent to our culture. What works for us will not work for others. Just like taking a medicine.

The only way to resolve religion conflict is to accept human diversity and focus on the natural good traits and virtues of human beings. Love, compassion, empathy, charity, kindness. These do not need a deity to be able to be practiced. It's inherent to mankind.

Superiority of race, creed and religion is trouble.

Hmm... but maybe all these religion biz (and i'm talking about the elaborately organized ones) are just fronts for something else entirely? Like, perhaps to have easy access to the 'conquered' land's resources and stuff?

Just thinking out loud here. Smile

Namaste!
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