Atheism and Islam

I have an imagination.

God should have used better feedback mechanism. If we are doing well, He gives us an orgasm. If we are doing something bad, He gives us a bad toothache. With that feedback mechanism, I am sure after a week, we already mastered what God wants us to do. No need for nagging from prophets.

Amigo wrote:Wow! the more compelling way pala is speculate and use imagination..

No. I mean for 'us' to use our imaginations as to how God would do a more compelling job. Like what @vril and @ateo are already doing.

Now if God has imagination, i'm sure He can cook up something better than using 'words'.
Is the use of 'Words' and books by God already an effective means for you, mi amigo?

Is the use of 'Words' and books by God already an effective means for
you, mi amigo?

No.....

Atheism and Muslim
I think its enough for me... You can continue your discussion to the Muslim...

Thanks for the 'words' you shared to me.

Ateo wrote:I have an imagination.

God should have used better feedback mechanism. If we are doing well, He gives us an orgasm. If we are doing something bad, He gives us a bad toothache. With that feedback mechanism, I am sure after a week, we already mastered what God wants us to do. No need for nagging from prophets.

hahahaha I think that's the most effective one! You can see the results just right after the deed! No need to wait till you're dead hehe

Ateo wrote:I have an imagination.

God should have used better feedback mechanism. If we are doing well, He gives us an orgasm. If we are doing something bad, He gives us a bad toothache. With that feedback mechanism, I am sure after a week, we already mastered what God wants us to do. No need for nagging from prophets.

lol...i would also prefer the orgasm...no need for heaven!...lol

unrealdummy wrote:I think your problem is you're treating me like an anti-theist which I am not. I only lack the belief in any god just like a new born baby. And as I said, you can't compare Islam to atheism because atheism doesn't hold any beliefs in god while Islam does. If you want you can compare Islam to Christianity, but again that doesn't prove anything.

Well, nobody says that a new born baby is an atheist, it your baseless assumption - argument from silence.

I'm not referring to Islam's definition of religion. I'm referring to general meaning of religion which is based on a belief system.

Well, I am telling you that Islam is not like any other religion and I am giving you the Islamic concept of religion because this thread is entitled ATHEISM AND(vs) iSLAM.

So your not believing in God doesnt absolutely mean that you dont have any religion. You are worshiping your desire. Do you know what the word worship mean anyway?



Have you seen him who has taken his whims and desires to be his god? 25:44

So you still have a God tho your God is not like our God - it is still a religion

Mmmm where did that come from? I don't know of any god. I don't have any beliefs about any god. And no, I don't treat my whims and desire to be my god because my whims and desires obviously originated from me. But I'm giving anyone a chance to present their case. And to respect their case, I'm going to give my greatest amount of skepticism I can possibly give as a token of showing how important the subject is.

It comes from the Quran, and you have been told that you are worshiping your desire and whims - the problem is that you didnt notice it. The reason is that you dont seem to know the meaning of the word worship - that's it

Do you think new born babies believe in god? Treat me like a stranger who just heard the word "god" for the first time and there you are introducing me the concept of god.

Yes, they do believe in God because the Quran told us so. What you see is their infant body but of course you dont see their spirits. - you dont believe in the Quran, then bring a book like it - the problem is you cant im 100% sure.

Jewel wrote:
Well, nobody says that a new born baby is an atheist, it your baseless assumption - argument from silence.

Nope it is not a baseless assumption. Simple question, do babies have a belief about gods? Simple answer is no. Therefore they are atheists. As simple as that. Unless you can prove to me that babies have a belief in god. They don't even know about god or what god is.

Jewel wrote:
Well, I am telling you that Islam is not like any other religion and I am giving you the Islamic concept of religion because this thread is entitled ATHEISM AND(vs) iSLAM.

So your not believing in God doesnt absolutely mean that you dont have any religion. You are worshiping your desire. Do you know what the word worship mean anyway?



Have you seen him who has taken his whims and desires to be his god? 25:44

So you still have a God tho your God is not like our God - it is still a religion

In that case, then your statement only holds true for Muslim audience. Maybe you're just a type of person who opt to change the word's meaning just to win an argument.

But no, I'm not going to use Islam's definition of religion. Here's what I'm gonna say to you: I don't have a religion. Only you and Muslims will believe that I do, and you can't win an argument just because Islam says so. If you want to change the meaning of words, go ahead, but I'm not going to refer to those words. I'll be sticking to religion's true meaning, which is based on a belief system. I lack the belief therefore I don't have a religion (not your Quran's definition of religion).

Jewel wrote:
It comes from the Quran, and you have been told that you are worshiping your desire and whims - the problem is that you didnt notice it. The reason is that you dont seem to know the meaning of the word worship - that's it

Are you accusing me of something?


Ok that's it, you're actually accusing me. I can't believe this. Baseless accusations. Because the Quran says so. I don't know anymore if Islam is any different from Christianity after reading that statement.

Jewel wrote:
Yes, they do believe in God because the Quran told us so. What you see is their infant body but of course you dont see their spirits. - you dont believe in the Quran, then bring a book like it - the problem is you cant im 100% sure.

I'm really tired of such argument. "I'm right because I say so". I can't believe you'll be using that argument.


Hey, I don't believe in the Bible, I don't believe in Jack and the Beanstalk, but I am not obliged to bring a book like it. Even if they ask me the same challenge, that doesn't prove them right and I would never want to find a book like those to disprove them. I don't need to disprove them because they haven't even proven themselves yet in the first place. That's the bottom line. Prove it first before I waste anymore of my limited time. You're the one who needs to prove something, not me, you carry the burden, not me.

Sampol:

Walang pinagkaiba yan sa huling huli ka sa akto ng panggagahasa sabay sasabihin mo, "hindi ko ginahasa ung babae, at para patunayan ko po sa inyo, mag hanap po kayo ng ibang babaeng ginahasa ko, wala po kayong makikita." May napatunayan ba ung akusado sa ganung statement? Wala po. Pede mo bang sabihing: "kita nyo na, wala kayong makikitang ibang babaeng ginahasa ko kaya tama po ako, hindi ko ginahasa ung babae."? Hindi po. Wa epek yang palusot na yan.

Another example.

Assume that you were the first person who claim that unicorn exists. Can you say, "hey! you will never find someone like me who made a claim like this, that unicorns exists, therefore I am right and true that unicorns do really exist!". Of course not. You can never prove a claim by saying that your claim is unique.

Bottom line, pag tinanong ka, wag mong sagutin ng isa pang tanong. Pag hiningan ka ng pweba, ibigay mo, wag ung ikaw pa ung hihingi ng pweba. Ikaw nga ung hinihingan ng pweba tapos ikaw pa ung manghihingi.

Nope it is not a baseless assumption. Simple question, do babies have a
belief about gods? Simple answer is no. Therefore they are atheists. As
simple as that. Unless you can prove to me that babies have a belief in
god. They don't even know about god or what god is.

Nope, not in gods but in God.

We have a different perspective here because you dont believe in God while I do. You cant prove either that new born babies dont have belief about God. In fact, Jesus Christ as documented in the Qur'an spoke of God while he was a new born baby, how about that?

Dont believe the Quran, bring a book like it.

So let's make this point a draw. You are the one who claimed that babies dont have any belief in God so the burden of proof is upon you.

In that case, then your statement only holds true for Muslim audience.
Maybe you're just a type of person who opt to change the word's meaning
just to win an argument.

But no, I'm not going to use Islam's
definition of religion. Here's what I'm gonna say to you: I don't have a
religion. Only you and Muslims will believe that I do, and you can't
win an argument just because Islam says so. If you want to change the
meaning of words, go ahead, but I'm not going to refer to those words.
I'll be sticking to religion's true meaning, which is based on a belief
system. I lack the belief therefore I don't have a religion (not your
Quran's definition of religion).

This is what I am saying; This thread is between atheism and Islam - so why refuse my Islamic definition?

Moreover, I did not say that I am representing all the religions, did I?

Are you accusing me of something?


Ok that's it, you're
actually accusing me. I can't believe this. Baseless accusations.
Because the Quran says so. I don't know anymore if Islam is any
different from Christianity after reading that statement.

It is still an allegation for now. Why dont you give me the meaning of the word worship? What does it mean. I am speaking here in behalf of Islam.

I'm really tired of such argument. "I'm right because I say so". I can't believe you'll be using that argument.

Nope, that is not what I did. I never said that I believe in God because I believe so. What I did is I quoted the Qur'an, and the Quran is not my handywork my friend - so no circular reasoning in my part here.

On the otherhand, what you have given us here is only from your personal opinion about God. I can give my opinions too but that's still an opinion. The bottom line is that I am not giving my own opinion, I am quoting a scripture - that's the difference between you and me.

Sampol:

Walang pinagkaiba yan sa huling huli ka sa akto ng
panggagahasa sabay sasabihin mo, "hindi ko ginahasa ung babae, at para
patunayan ko po sa inyo, mag hanap po kayo ng ibang babaeng ginahasa ko,
wala po kayong makikita." May napatunayan ba ung akusado sa ganung
statement? Wala po. Pede mo bang sabihing: "kita nyo na, wala kayong
makikitang ibang babaeng ginahasa ko kaya tama po ako, hindi ko ginahasa
ung babae."? Hindi po. Wa epek yang palusot na yan.

Well, I dont know how is it related to my arguments here.

My evidence is all time available for investigation.

Another example.

Assume that you were the first person who claim
that unicorn exists. Can you say, "hey! you will never find someone like
me who made a claim like this, that unicorns exists, therefore I am
right and true that unicorns do really exist!". Of course not. You can
never prove a claim by saying that your claim is unique.

Well, another hypothetical question.

My evidence is all time available for scrutiny, why compare it to myth? False analogy sir.

Bottom line, pag tinanong ka, wag mong sagutin ng isa pang tanong. Pag
hiningan ka ng pweba, ibigay mo, wag ung ikaw pa ung hihingi ng pweba.
Ikaw nga ung hinihingan ng pweba tapos ikaw pa ung manghihingi

You are sleeping sir. My evidence is the Quran and is all time available in case you want to investigate. I did not give any imaginary or mythical evidence.

Again, false analogy sir.

Jewel wrote:
Nope, not in gods but in God.

We have a different perspective here because you dont believe in God while I do. You cant prove either that new born babies dont have belief about God. In fact, Jesus Christ as documented in the Qur'an spoke of God while he was a new born baby, how about that?

Do babies know anything about god? Prove it. As far as I know, I was born without any knowledge about any god, not Jesus, not Allah, I don't even know the names of my parents!

Jewel wrote:
Dont believe the Quran, bring a book like it.

No point. Doesn't prove anything.

Jewel wrote:
So let's make this point a draw. You are the one who claimed that babies dont have any belief in God so the burden of proof is upon you.

When I was a baby, I don't have any beliefs in any god. I don't know Jesus, or even Mohammed or Allah! Until my parents taught me about Jesus. How about that. Do you know Jesus or Mohammed or Allah when you were just born? I don't think so, not even Hindus or Buddhists know that for sure. You know why I know? Because if all babies knew that Jesus or Mohammed exists and were the true messengers of god, there would be no other religions in this world. And yeah, the absence is the default, so lack of belief is the default position again in this case. You need to prove that babies do know about Jesus or Mohammed when they were born.

By the way, I have a Buddhist friend, and she herself was also born atheist. No belief in any god, don't even know who Allah or Mohammed is.

There is no almighty God in Buddhism. There is no one to hand out rewards or punishments on a supposedly Judgement Day. Buddhism is strictly not a religion in the context of being a faith and worship owing allegiance to a supernatural being.
http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/snapshot01.htm

The fact that there are many Buddhists in this world without being introduced to Allah is sufficient to say that babies are really born atheist. I ask you, do babies know anything? Prove it.

This is what I am saying; This thread is between atheism and Islam - so why refuse my Islamic definition?

Why I should accept your definition of religion? If you're going to change the definition of it, then it's like you want me to say the words the I don't mean. That's ridiculous. I will say the words I wanna say, and it's not your shot. You can call "religion" as "way of life" but that won't change anything with what I want to say because I am not referring to your definition of religion, I am referring to the true definition of religion which is based on a belief system.

Nope, that is not what I did. I never said that I believe in God because I believe so. What I did is I quoted the Qur'an, and the Quran is not my handywork my friend - so no circular reasoning in my part here.

Yes it is circular. It's not any different to "My God is the true God, because the Bible says so". And you don't have any proof about Quran. To you Quran is the proof of Quran, therefore evidence for Quran exists, therefore Quran is right.

On the otherhand, what you have given us here is only from your personal opinion about God. I can give my opinions too but that's still an opinion. The bottom line is that I am not giving my own opinion, I am quoting a scripture - that's the difference between you and me.

As I said, I don't have any belief in god. And that is not an opinion, that's a fact.

Well, I dont know how is it related to my arguments here.

Yes it is relevant because that's the way your Quran proves it self. By passing the burden to others. Instead of giving evidence, you demand to find a book like it. So yeah, it's like you were caught in the act and still you deny and to prove you are innocent, you make a demand the court to find another woman you have raped. You can't demand anything from the judge. Prove it by providing evidence. If Quran wants to be accepted as the truth, then Quran must provide evidence and not make any demands.

My evidence is all time available for scrutiny, why compare it to myth? False analogy sir.

As I said, Quran's challenge doesn't count as evidence. Quran cannot prove itself by making demands.

You are sleeping sir. My evidence is the Quran and is all time available in case you want to investigate. I did not give any imaginary or mythical evidence.

Again, false analogy sir.

As I said, Quran's challenge doesn't count as evidence. Quran cannot prove itself by making demands.

unrealdummy wrote:Do babies know anything about god? Prove it. As far as I know, I was born without any knowledge about any god, not Jesus, not Allah, I don't even know the names of my parents!

No you prove it friend dummy because you are the one who appealed to the state of a new born baby - you said that new born babies dont believe in God - so the burden is on you not on me; I just denied what you said, so needs to prove his claim now?

With regards to your personal new born experience, that's subjective my friend, because that was you, not us ( what is that argument, "I am correct because I say so"?

Moreover, do you really know how belief in God is manifested in a new born baby? No you dont, Im sure. If you know, then tell me how, otherwise you would be guilty of speaking of something without correct knowledge.

No point. Doesn't prove anything.

No point according to you, but you are not the judge here right?

When I was a baby, I don't have any beliefs in any god. I don't know Jesus, or even Mohammed or Allah! Until my parents taught me about Jesus. How about that. Do you know Jesus or Mohammed or Allah when you were just born? I don't think so, not even Hindus or Buddhists know that for sure. You know why I know? Because if all babies knew that Jesus or Mohammed exists and were the true messengers of god, there would be no other religions in this world. And yeah, the absence is the default, so lack of belief is the default position again in this case. You need to prove that babies do know about Jesus or Mohammed when they were born.

Who told you that belief in God in new born babies is like what you said? who told you that? Perhaps you need to know something about "fitra" - Just tell me if you dont know it so I may inform you about it.

By the way, I have a Buddhist friend, and she herself was also born atheist. No belief in any god, don't even know who Allah or Mohammed is.

There is no almighty God in Buddhism. There is no one to hand out rewards or punishments on a supposedly Judgement Day. Buddhism is strictly not a religion in the context of being a faith and worship owing allegiance to a supernatural being.
http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/snapshot01.htm

Again, who told you that belief about God in new born babies is like that of the adults? - there is some kind of false comparison here friend dummy.

And what is shocking is that you consulted a buddhist friend. I respect buddhism, but I have to make clear to you that they are idolaters - not a good means to research about theology - I would rather worship myself like you do, than worship metals and stones which they carved by their own hands. So dont consult them, you are better than them; at least you are using your intellect and you cant accept that an idol stone or metal has got any spirit or power - well, they dont have any, bring them to me and i will burn and break them, provided that buddhists wont get offended.




The fact that there are many Buddhists in this world without being introduced to Allah is sufficient to say that babies are really born atheist. I ask you, do babies know anything? Prove it.

Yes they know something - Who taught them to suck? Dont tell me that atheists taught them, or that they know how to suck despite their infancy.

But hey, you are the one who made the claim, so why ask me to prove it?

Why I should accept your definition of religion? If you're going to change the definition of it, then it's like you want me to say the words the I don't mean. That's ridiculous. I will say the words I wanna say, and it's not your shot. You can call "religion" as "way of life" but that won't change anything with what I want to say because I am not referring to your definition of religion, I am referring to the true definition of religion which is based on a belief system.

Why accept mine? It is because i have a clear religion, a complete one both worldly and spiritual, while you dont have, so I am in a better position here as compared to you.

Some religion is limited to spiritual aspect, but that doesnt mean that their concept is complete so that their definition is absolutely final. Yes they are considered as religion, but their religion is incomplete because they lack the worldly aspect which is part and parcel of human life.

All religions teach that God made human beings with physical aspect and spiritual aspect. It would then be logical to say that God's guidance should not be limited to spiritual aspect only because humans have physical needs too. This is why God made many regulations about marriage, parenting, war, government, hygiene, ect.

So God's guidance is complete and it is manifested completely in Islam - show me any religion that has this completeness in both physical and spiritual aspects - you cant- that is why I am only representing Islam here not any other religion.

As I said, I don't have any belief in god. And that is not an opinion, that's a fact.

Im not arguing whether you are an atheist or not. What i said is that your opinion is purely subjective because you have no evidence to show other than your personal opinion; but what about the opinions of billions of people who dont agree with your opinion? -

Yes it is relevant because that's the way your Quran proves it self. By passing the burden to others. Instead of giving evidence, you demand to find a book like it. So yeah, it's like you were caught in the act and still you deny and to prove you are innocent, you make a demand the court to find another woman you have raped. You can't demand anything from the judge. Prove it by providing evidence. If Quran wants to be accepted as the truth, then Quran must provide evidence and not make any demands.

Nope, I dont think so. In fact it is extremely rare that an evidence offers a way of proving itself false. You cant find that in any scripture in the world. and the challenge is not something imaginary because man can/does make books, so they have the ability to prove that challenge wrong; but why cant they make a book like the Quran?

BTW, there was an attempt made by Christian missionaries; they call their book "The True Furqan" - they tried their very best but it just made them a laughing stuff - find out why.

As I said, Quran's challenge doesn't count as evidence. Quran cannot prove itself by making demands.

answered above....



As I said, Quran's challenge doesn't count as evidence. Quran cannot prove itself by making demands.

answered above...


thanks

Jewel wrote:
No you prove it friend dummy because you are the one who appealed to the state of a new born baby - you said that new born babies dont believe in God - so the burden is on you not on me; I just denied what you said, so needs to prove his claim now?

Let's say I don't know. Ok, now prove it that they do have beliefs in god. No you can't. If you can't prove that they have a belief? Well that's right! They are innocent. They know nothing but yeah, it is possible that they know something but that needs proving. That's the default my friend, no need for evidence. Again, negative position needs no evidence. I wonder how many times I need to tell you that.

If I can't say babies don't have a belief and you can't say babies do have beleifs, so what can we conclude? Nothing. But the point is you can't say they have a belief. As long as you can't say they do have a belief, you can't use the argument that they were born with a belief. That's all that matters. We can only conclude something like this: "So far we don't have any proofs that babies do belief in god."

Jewel wrote:

Moreover, do you really know how belief in God is manifested in a new born baby? No you dont, Im sure. If you know, then tell me how, otherwise you would be guilty of speaking of something without correct knowledge.

No, tell me how. Prove it. Back it up with evidence.

No point according to you, but you are not the judge here right?

Yes I am the judge here, I am not here to disprove you (because you haven't proven your claim yet), I am here to assess your evidence. So far you haven't presented anything to prove that Quran is God's true words. You only presented the Quran's challenge which doesn't prove anything. Any book can be unique.

Perhaps you need to know something about "fitra" - Just tell me if you dont know it so I may inform you about it.

You are very welcome. In fact you shouldn't delay as this has been going far too long already.

Again, who told you that belief about God in new born babies is like that of the adults? - there is some kind of false comparison here friend dummy.

Please elaborate.

And what is shocking is that you consulted a buddhist friend. I respect buddhism, but I have to make clear to you that they are idolaters - not a good means to research about theology - I would rather worship myself like you do, than worship metals and stones which they carved by their own hands. So dont consult them, you are better than them; at least you are using your intellect and you cant accept that an idol stone or metal has got any spirit or power - well, they dont have any, bring them to me and i will burn and break them, provided that buddhists wont get offended.

I didn't consult Buddhism to prove that they are right and you're wrong. I presented them to prove you that not all new born babies know Allah. You must be gifted to know Allah even before anyone told you about him. That's just unbelievable.

Yes they know something - Who taught them to suck? Dont tell me that atheists taught them, or that they know how to suck despite their infancy.

Instinct. Don't tell me you knew Allah by instinct. Don't tell me you know how to pray and face to the direction of Black Stone of Meccah (or whatever that is) when you were just born? That's just ridiculous if not totally unbelievable.

But hey, you are the one who made the claim, so why ask me to prove it?

Nope, I'm just telling you the fact that there has been no proven babies to have known any gods when they were born. It is possible that they might have a belief but you need to prove it because as of now, we don't have any proof. Again, negative position stands. If there's no evidence, then we assum nothing. Or should I explain again to you what is a true negative stance?

Why accept mine? It is because i have a clear religion, a complete one both worldly and spiritual, while you dont have, so I am in a better position here as compared to you.

Nope, I can't use your Islam's definition of religion because that will change the meaning of what I was trying to explain. I will remain using the true definition of religion, which is based on a belief system.

Some religion is limited to spiritual aspect, but that doesnt mean that their concept is complete so that their definition is absolutely final. Yes they are considered as religion, but their religion is incomplete because they lack the worldly aspect which is part and parcel of human life.

That is according to Islam, so there's no reason for me to use something I don't have a belief about.

All religions teach that God made human beings with physical aspect and spiritual aspect.

I see. So if we don't teach that God made humans, that qualifies anyone as having no religion. I can agree to that. I don't qualify as having any religion after all. We finally agreed at some point!

but what about the opinions of billions of people who dont agree with your opinion? -

What was my opinion again? That god doesn't exist? Did a make any such claim? Please do remember, I know nothing. I assume nothing. And there you are presenting to me or claiming you know something about god. All I'm asking is for you to prove it to me.

Nope, I dont think so. In fact it is extremely rare that an evidence offers a way of proving itself false. You cant find that in any scripture in the world. and the challenge is not something imaginary because man can/does make books, so they have the ability to prove that challenge wrong; but why cant they make a book like the Quran?

Why can't they make something like Quran? And if you're going to answer it by yourself, you're going to say, because only God can make such work? You are trying to remove all other possibilities such as nobody is willing to make another such book. If I say the Bible is like the Quran, full of hatred and demonstrations of how god egoistic, sadistic, freak control monster is, would you deny it? Of course you will, such thing is subjective. Anyone can say o yeah, Bible is not like Quran, yeah, Bible is really like the Quran. You see, what you're asking is subjective. We cannot and will never be in agreement if ever I found something like the Quran.

But then again, presenting a challenge is NOT EQUAL to presenting an evidence.

unrealdummy wrote:

Let's say I don't know. Ok, now prove it that they do have beliefs in god. No you can't. If you can't prove that they have a belief? Well that's right! They are innocent. They know nothing but yeah, it is possible that they know something but that needs proving. That's the default my friend, no need for evidence. Again, negative position needs no evidence. I wonder how many times I need to tell you that.

If I can't say babies don't have a belief and you can't say babies do have beleifs, so what can we conclude? Nothing. But the point is you can't say they have a belief. As long as you can't say they do have a belief, you can't use the argument that they we're born with a belief. That's all that matters. We can only conclude something like this: "So far we don't have any proofs that babies do belief in god."

You just prove me right friend dummy. Didnt you remember that I said we have a draw in this point?

You need to remember tho that I am not the one who make an appeal to new born babies, it was you. So since you said that you really dont know how to prove your claim about new born babies godless belief, then you claim/appeal on them melts, correct?

What about my counter argument for you on that? Well, I have a scripture to present to you that new born babies do believe in God but not exactly the same way as the adults do simply because their level of thinking is not the same - whether you accept that or not, it doesnt matter, at least I have an evidence. Moreover, even if the evidence is not true, it doesnt matter because I am not the one who made a claim bout new born babies anyway - that's it.

No, tell me how. Prove it. Back it with evidence.

The problem is that you dont accept my evidence. This is a matter of with evidence vs no evidence at all.

Yes I am the judge here, I am not here to disprove you (because you haven't proven your claim yet), I am here to assess your evidence. So far you haven't presented anything to prove that Quran is God's true words. You only presented the Quran's challenge which doesn't prove anything. Any book can be unique.

You are the judge according to you, but not according to me - so what does that make?

Im not here to convince you or disprove you; As I always said since the beginning that I am here to represent Islam for the atheists, and that my stand is always been consistent - Islamic stand is better than that of atheism simply because Islam has an evidence while atheists have none whatsoever.

I did not only present the Quran. Let me remind you that I also presented the person of Prophet Muhammad pbuh, dont forget that. We are still discussing about my first evidence.

My 2nd evidence has been discussed by me and element_115x - Prophet Muhammad's legacy - How is it possible that a man in the middle of Sahara desert has the Quran which is an inimitable book. How is it that he had this more than a billion people today follow a complete guidance about spiritual aspect of their life, as well as their worldly affairs? Who can match him, bring any person to match prophet Muhammad in terms of what I have mentioned above. You may cite theist people because i know that no atheist can match him. His main and central teaching is that there is no god worthy to be worshiped but the only true God, the lord of all that exist - why was that?

You are very welcome. In fact you shouldn't delay as this has been going far too long already.

Well, good that you really admit that you are guilty of speaking of something without proper/enough knowledge about the thing.

Fitra, or fitrah (Ar. فطرة), is an Arabic word meaning ‘disposition’, ‘nature’, ‘constitution’, or ‘instinct’

"Allah has brought you out from the bellies of
your mothers. You did not then know anything. He gave you hearing,
seeing, and hearts, so that you can be thankful to Him." The Holy Qur'an, Chapter 16, Verse 78

A person's clean and pure nature (fitrah) leads him to knowing Allah.

Allah(swt) says:
"Keep your face upon the true religion (fitrah). This is the pure nature
according to which Allah has created the people. There should be no
change in Allah's creation. Truly, this is the correct religion, but
most of the people do not know."
The Holy Qur'an, Chapter 30, Verse 30


The Prophet, may the mercy and blessings of God be upon him,
reported that God said,

“I created My servants in the right religion (fitrah) but the
devils made them go astray

Narrated Abu-Huraira:
Allah's Apostle said, "No child is born except on Al-fitra (Islam) and
then his parents make him Jewish, Christian or Magian (Zoroastrian), as
an animal produces a perfect young animal: do you see any part of its
body amputated?"
- Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 2, Book 23, Number 441


That's fitrah, and God has already told us about it.

Please elaborate.

elaborated above...

I didn't consulted Buddhism to prove that they are right and you're wrong. I presented them to prove you that not all new born babies know Allah. You must be gifted to know Allah even before anyone told you about him. That's just unbelievable.

wEll, that's a big misconception friend dummy. It doesnt have to be Allah as a name. Allah is the Arabic personal name for True God. You dont have to be an arabic expert just to know God because God taught people different languages.

"O Mankind, We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a
female and made you into nations and tribes, that you may know each other.
Verily the most honored of you in the sight of God is he who is the most
righteous of you" (Quran 49:13).

Instinct. Don't tell me you knew Allah by instinct.

Instinct or fitrah? Think about it.

Nope, I'm just telling you the fact that there has been no proven babies to have known any gods when they were born. It is possible that they might have a belief but you need to prove it because as of now, we don't have any proof. Again, negative position stands. If there's no evidence, then we assum nothing. Or should I explain again to you what is a true negative stance?

What do you mean proven? Proven by science? how would science prove a spiritual matter? Oh c'mon friend dummy, you are making science impossible now; science cant prove spiritual matters, hellowww.

Nope, I can't use your Islam's definition of religion because that will change the meaning of what I was trying to explain. I will remain using the true definition of religion, which is based on a belief system.

true definition? did you forget that when we talk about religion we are talking about God? So who do you think knows better as to what the word religion really means, people who follows God, or God who is obeyed by the people?

I think, the answer is obvious right there. So bring me a religious scripture that has the meaning of religion in it if you know of any. As for me, I can present you/have presented you the Quran.

You cant do anything about because God has already prepared his religion for different kinds of people's argument against him.

That is according to Islam, so there's no reason for me to use something I don't have a belief about.

There you are, gotcha. So why depute my definition then if that's your case?

I see. So if we don't teach that God made humans, that qualifies anyone as having no religion. I can agree to that. I don't qualify as having any religion after all. We finally agreed at some point!

But why not? after having the claim and evidences for the existence of God? You still have your religion because you have a god, your whims and desire. Isnt God the one that should be obeyed ; who do you obey, is it not your desire (satisfaction, ect)?

What was my opinion again? That god doesn't exist? Did a make any such claim? Please do remember, I know nothing. I assume nothing. And there you are presenting to me or claiming you know something about god. All I'm asking is for you to prove it to me.

You know nothing but you have your own criteria for believing in God's existence or not - That sounds a contradiction to me - If you really know nothing, then where did you get/how did you formulate your criteria?

Why can't they make something like Quran? And if you're going to answer it by yourself, you're going to say, because only God can make such work? You are trying to remove all other possibilities such as nobody is willing to make another such book. If I say the Bible is like the Quran, full of hatred and demonstrations of how god egoistic, sadistic, freak control monster is, would you deny it? Of course you will, such thing is subjective. Anyone can say o yeah, Bible is not like Quran, yeah, Bible is really like the Quran. You see, what you're asking is subjective. We cannot and will never be in agreement if ever I found something like the Quran.

The problem is that what you will always tell/give me is very hypothetical - bring the bible here and let's say if it can match the Quran - Let's start from how it is read - God's word must always be better that any of his creation's word.

Present it here.

What about unwillingness? Well, that doesnt weaken the claim of the Quran because that something purely imaginary. bring something real because the evidence is real not imaginary. it is all-time available for investigation.

But then again, presenting a challenge is NOT EQUAL to presenting an evidence.

yes you are right, but that is not the case friend dummy. The real situation is that the evidence itself made a challenge to anyone to prove itself wrong, and the challenge is not something that people cant do. In fact people had/are making books - but why cant imitate or make something like the Quran?

So the evidence's for ISlam here is firmly standing .


Thanks

I'm tired of this. We cannot and will never be in agreement because you have a belief in Quran and I do not. You want me to subscribe to your belief to disprove you, while I don't need to disprove you because you haven't proven yourself right (or that the Quran is true).

The real situation is that the evidence itself made a challenge to anyone to prove itself wrong.

You haven't proven that the Quran is right, so there's no need for someone to prove it wrong. Remember, all claims are presumed to be false until they are finally proven to be true. First things first, Quran must prove itself to be true before it can demand to be disproved. Get proven first, then disproving follows.

If I say there's a teapot in Andromeda Galaxy and there's no one who can disprove me, does that mean I am right? Did I prove anything? Certainly not.

unrealdummy wrote:You haven't proven that the Quran is right, so there's no need for someone to prove it wrong.

In fact I did because as I said earlier, human beings have physical and spiritual aspects, and that both needs attention because they have different needs.

The Quran provides the complete guidance for both of these needs; how is it possible? Isnt that the quran was made by an illiterate man of arabia 1400 years ago? How is it that modern men cant match the Quran with all these modern technologies? Is an illiterate man of ancient time better than anyone else in this modern era?

Why is that? why?


=============

ADDITION...


Just incase you find a book to compare with the Quran, here is what you should listen first, and find out if the book which you found can match it, then we'll talk about their teachings, wisdom, completeness, ect.


Recitation from chapter 55 of the Quran

Jewel wrote:
In fact I did because as I said earlier, human beings have physical and spiritual aspects, and that both needs attention because they have different needs.

The Quran provides the complete guidance for both of these needs; how is it possible? Isnt that the quran was made by an illiterate man of arabia 1400 years ago? How is it that modern men cant match the Quran with all these modern technologies? Is an illiterate man of ancient time better than anyone else in this modern era?

Why is that? why?

Make a new thread discussing about that, I'll look into it. You should have turned the focus into that matter not prove Quran is right because it cannot be proven false. It's like If I say there's a teapot in Andromeda Galaxy and there's no one who can disprove me, does that mean I am right? Did I prove anything? Certainly not.

But to answer your question why, there's a lot of possibilities. That doesn't leave us to only one possible/probable answer.

unrealdummy wrote:Make a new thread discussing about that, I'll look into it. You should have turned the focus into that matter not prove Quran is right because it cannot be proven false. It's like If I say there's a teapot in Andromeda Galaxy and there's no one who can disprove me, does that mean I am right? Did I prove anything? Certainly not.

But to answer your question why, there's a lot of possibilities. That doesn't leave us to only one possible/probable answer.

Thats a very false comparison friend dummy. In your example the evidence is imaginary while in my case the evidence is real and is all time available for scrutiny by anyone - so how does your comparison acceptable?

You dont compare a real and physical evidence to an imaginary one, right?


Now I think that all your effort has been done, but My evidences are still so strong to disprove (No person can match prophet Muhammad, and that the Quran cant be produced by anyone other than God);


We will now proceed, if you are still interested, on your criteria about the belief of God. What are your criteria so that if someone can satisfy them, you would believe that there is really God?

We will find out whether or not your criteria are logical and practical.


Im waiting....


Thanks

Jewel wrote:
Thats a very false comparison friend dummy. In your example the evidence is imaginary while in my case the evidence is real and is all time available for scrutiny by anyone - so how does your comparison acceptable?

You dont compare a real and physical evidence to an imaginary one, right?

What is imaginary? The claim is imaginary? What if I make a claim right now that says "I am claiming that there is a teapot in Andromeda Galaxy, no one can disprove me."

OK, let's make it real:

I hereby claim that somebody named "Jewel" is living in Andromeda Galaxy. What I'm saying is true because no one can disprove me. So I ask you, am I speaking the truth or not? Is my claim true or not?

Totally non-sense. Can't you see how illogical your reasoning is? Non-sequitur. It doesn't follow. Not because somebody cannot disprove you doesn't mean you are right. Your claim isn't proven yet in the first place so there's no need to disprove it. How many times do I need to mention this. I'm getting tired.

Jewel wrote:
We will now proceed, if you are still interested, on your criteria about the belief of God. What are your criteria so that if someone can satisfy them, you would believe that there is really God?

We will find out whether or not your criteria are logical and practical.

Criteria. If say god must be able to create something out of nothing, will you show me how god does it? Will you even care to explain how is that possible? I don't think that would ever happen. That is assuming creating something out of nothing is even possible!

unrealdummy wrote:

What is imaginary? The claim is imaginary? What if I make a claim right now that says "I am claiming that there is a teapot in Andromeda Galaxy, no one can disprove me."

OK, let's make it real. I hereby claim that somebody named "Jewel" is living in Andromeda Galaxy. What I'm saying is true because no one can disprove me. So I ask you, am I speaking the truth or not? Is my claim true or not?

Totally non-sense. Can't you see how illogical your reasoning is?

No, I dont think so. Your claim is still imaginary because you yourself has never gone to Andromeda, and that people have no means of verifying it.

As for the Quran, it is real, you and I, and anyone else can verify it, see it, touch it, read it, in fact memorize it - so how does your andromeda stuff be comparable to that?

Criteria. If say god must be able to create something out of nothing, will you show me how god does it? Will you even care to explain how is that possible? I don't think that would ever happen.

I think you didnt understand what I said. Okay let me simplify it for you:

What would convince you that there is really God? What evidence do you need?

I hope it is clear now.


Thanks

Jewel wrote:
No, I dont think so. Your claim is still imaginary because you yourself has never gone to Andromeda, and that people have no means of verifying it.

As for the Quran, it is real, you and I, and anyone else can verify it, see it, touch it, read it, in fact memorize it - so how does your andromeda stuff be comparable to that?

No, my claim is real. You can see it here in this forum, in fact, you have just read my claim. Quran's claim and my claim are just the same, both are written and both cannot be disproved. And no, I went to Andromeda just a while ago, I really saw you there. Disprove me now. I am right because no one can disprove me.

Jewel wrote:
I think you didnt understand what I said. Okay let me simplify it for you:

What would convince you that there is really God? What evidence do you need?

Mmmm it's like asking a judge what would convince him that your evidence is strong.

*double post*

unrealdummy wrote:No, my claim is real. You can see it here in this forum, in fact, you have just read my claim. Quran's claim and my claim are just the same, both are written and both cannot be disproved. And no, I went to Andromeda just a while ago, I really saw you there. Disprove me now. I am right because no one can disprove me.

Hmmm, getting funny really. What we can see is your claim but where is the physical evidence of your claim?

As for me, I presented to you the physical Quran, not just a mere claim in this forum - where is yours?

Mmmm it's like asking a judge what would convince him that your evidence is strong.

Is my question scary or confusing or tricky? I think it is very simple; why cant you answer it?

What would make you believe that there is God since you said you are not convinced with my evidences; what would convince you?

Waiting...

...........duplicate post..............

Jewel wrote:
As for me, I presented to you the physical Quran, not just a mere claim in this forum - where is yours?

Good news! I just printed out my claim in an A4-size paper. Now my evidence takes a physical form. How about that? So there's no difference, both are written physically and both cannot be disproved. I can't believe I can make any claims without the need to prove anything! That was so easy!

Jewel wrote:
What would make you believe that there is God since you said you are not convinced with my evidences; what would convince you?

Mmmm what do you think is the reasonable answer to that question? If I say God must introduce himself on Earth formally and not through a book, would you give anything like that?

unrealdummy wrote:Good news! I just printed out my claim in an A4-size paper. Now my evidence takes a physical form. How about that? So there's no difference, both are written physically and both cannot be disproved. I can't believe I can make any claims without the need to prove anything! That was so easy!

hmmm, i think i have a greater advantage here. I'll leave this one for the audience to judge.

Mmmm what do you think is the reasonable answer to that question? If I say God must introduce himself on Earth formally and not through a book, would you give anything like that?

Why cant you give your final answer? Say for example

" I would believe that there is God if such and such is presented otherwise I wont believe that there is God due to lack of evidence"

What do you think that evidence be that could make you convince that there is God? -- I dont know what English / sentence pattern should I make for you to understand what I mean. Dont make it so difficult for me because my English is very elementary.


Thanks

[quote="Jewel"]

It seems you don't have any counter argument. Are you now admitting that anyone can make any claims just like I did?



Because unlike you, I am open to all other possibilities. That is why.