Atheism and Islam

element_115x wrote:Hi! I just take it as it comes, anyway the flow seems to have the same backbone, anyway. It's still in conjunction with the topic. Only i delete the parts where you are obviously directing things to @unrealdummy or any one for that matter. Namaste!

I see. I just dont want to confuse my responses to both of you because I dont wanna be accused of attributing statements to any of you which you did not say; strawman that is. Moreover, I dont wanna conclude anything from what you didnt say.

aNyway, after knowing your reason, I will have to go with the flow.

wait for my response.


Thanks

@element_115x

Generally, i don't think the atheist stand can be weakened by the fact
that it can't provide evidence for God's non-existence. Even more so if
the evidence you seek should only revolve around the 'idea' of a God
that you are laying out (i.e, the theistic Muslim God).

What makes our conclusion complicated is that I am weighing the two conflicting sides as to which of them is heavier that the other because there are only two options and I need to choose only one. I cant leave the question unanswered otherwise an unanswered question is 100% wrong. Therefore I have to choose which of the two given options is better.

I don't take this as a contest of whoever presents the most convincing
case for a God is made any better than the other... not at all. For
whatever it's worth, discussions like this only shows how good the
reasoning skills of people are.... and if we really think about it,
where would God be if His middlemen (the people who aids us in 'looking'
for God) are nowhere to be found?

Well, I did because if you participate on discussing something against someone then it means that you are taking your own side. If there are two opposing sides and the matter is that they have to be weighed in, then you cant abandon your post by saying that both sides are wrong anyway - you cant have your cake and eat they say :p

Unrealdummy
said:

Nothing personal but the more you reveal
me the verses of the Quran the
more it feels like it is really like the Christianity's Bible.

I remember one time that there is a question... What other book is the same like the BIBLE? somebody answer it's Quran.

Na post ko lang ito dahil sa challenge nang Quran na ini post ni Jewel

Al-Baqara

And
if ye are in doubt concerning that which We reveal
unto Our slave
(Muhammad), then produce a surah of the like
thereof, and call your
witness beside Allah if ye are
truthful. (23)

Likewise I'm just thinking that probably the answer for this challenge is the BIBLE. I maybe sound that I am in doubt concerning that what (Muhammad) revealed because I'm a Catholic. But I'm posting this not to debate and nothing personal too.

Amigo wrote:
I remember one time that there is a question... What other book is the same like the BIBLE? somebody answer it's Quran.

Na post ko lang ito dahil sa challenge nang Quran na ini post ni Jewel




Likewise I'm just thinking that probably the answer for this challenge is the BIBLE. I maybe sound that I am in doubt concerning that what (Muhammad) revealed because I'm a Catholic. But I'm posting this not to debate and nothing personal too.

Ganyan dapat, may counter evidence, hindi yung tutol ng tutol wala namang ebedense tapos maghuhugas kamay kaagad


Aling bible ba brad ang tinutukoy mo, yung 73 or 66 books? Yung may 1john 5:7 or yung tinanggalan ng 1john 5:7

Gusto ko muna linawin bago natin isalang kasi maraming klase ang bible eh.


Peace.

Peace din po....

Kung binasa mo po iyong post ko sabi ko Catholic ako... so siguro naman po ay alam mo na kung aling BIBLE ang tinutukoy ko iisa lang po ang Bible nang Catholic eh...

Amigo wrote:Peace din po....

Kung binasa mo po iyong post ko sabi ko Catholic ako... so siguro naman po ay alam mo na kung aling BIBLE ang tinutukoy ko iisa lang po ang Bible nang Catholic eh...

Alam ko yun brad

pero kung nilaliman mo ng konte ang tanong ko, siguro naman po ay alam mo na alam ko na hindi nagkakaisa ang mga kristyano na ang lahat ng aklat ng catholic bible ay inspired, kaya para sa amin na outside christianity, eresolba nyo muna kung alin ba talaga ang kinasihan dyan sa dalawa kasi malaking problema yan.

Kung kayo mismo di magkasundo kung aling bible ang kinasihan, papano nyo makukumbensi na ang bibliya nyo ay reliable?

Yun po ang punto dyan!


Anyway, ano ba meron sa catholic bible para ikumpara mo sa Quran?

Akala mo lang po ay malalim ang tanong mo dahil akala mo po ay tama ang pagkaka alam mo. Walang problema sa Catholic dahil matagal na pong resolved sa Catholic kung alin ang inspired dahil wala naman pong ini canonized na Bible ang Protestant Christian to compared with. Ang mga Catholic po ay magkakasundo sa mga aklat sa Biblia.

Ang mga mga Protestante po ang hindi magkasundo kung anong ang interpretation na gagamitin nila kaya dapat sa mga protestante ang address nang tanong mo.

Hindi po ako protestant... yan naman po ang punto ko.

Ang Bible po at ang Quran ay parehas nagpapakikilalang naglalaman nang salita nang Diyos. Iyan lang po sa ngayon ang alam ko para ikumpara ang dalawa.

Amigo wrote:Akala mo lang po ay malalim ang tanong mo dahil akala mo po ay tama ang pagkaka alam mo. Walang malaking problema sa Catholic dahil matagal na pong resolved sa Catholic kung alin ang inspired dahil wala naman pong ini canonized na Bible ang Protestant Christian to compared with. Ang mga Catholic po ay magkakasundo sa mga aklat sa Biblia.

Ang mga mga Protestante po ang hindi magkasundo kung anong ang interpretation na gagamitin nila kaya dapat sa mga protestante ang address nang tanong mo.

Hindi po ako protestant... yan naman po ang punto ko.

Ito nga yon ang punto ko; tulad ng sinabi mong ito, subjective ito para sa mga katoliko dahil alam mo at alam ko na hindi ito tanggap na opinion para sa mga non-catholic christians; kaya it is either white or black, hindi pweding white yet black but remains white at the same time.

Yan ang punto ko dyan brad. Nasa atheists board tayo kaya iwasan ang pagiging subjective sa pananaw.

Kung hindi nga makumbensi ang mga atyesta sa Quran na walang pagtatalo ang mga muslim, ano kaya dyan sa bible na pinagtatalunan pa ng mga kristyanos?

Ang Bible po at ang Quran ay parehas nagpapakikilalang naglalaman nang salita nang Diyos. Iyan lang po sa ngayon ang alam ko para ikumpara ang dalawa.

Papano mo naman nasabi na pati bibliya ay salita ng Diyos, ano ba ang batayan mo, may falsification test ba ang bibliya tulad ng Quran?

Dapat may logical criteria tayo na ang aklat na sinasabing salita ng diyos ay salita nga talaga ng Diyos - dapat isalang yan sa acid test kumbaga.


Thanks

Sa pagkaka alam ko walang falsification test ang BIBLE. Dyan po lumalabas ang punto nitong si Unrealdummy na hindi iyang falsification test ang pagbabasehan para maging salita nang Diyos ang isang aklat. Dahil hindi po batayan na porke may falsification test ang isang aklat ay salita na nang Diyos ito. Ingat ingat lang po dahil tama ang sabi mo nasa atheists board tayo.

Concentrate ka nalang po sa debate ninyo ni Unrealdummy dahil sabi ko nga po sa inyo sa unang post ko I'm not into debate nong mag post ako. I just quoted Unrealdummy dahil nabanggit nya ang Christianity's Bible. It so happen lang po na nagreact ka dahil na quote ko ang challenge nang Quran tungkol sa falsification test.

Amigo wrote:Sa pagkaka alam ko walang falsification test ang BIBLE. Dyan po lumalabas ang punto nitong si Unrealdummy na hindi iyang falsification test ang pagbabasehan para maging salita nang Diyos ang isang aklat. Dahil hindi po batayan na porke may falsification test ang isang aklat ay salita na nang Diyos ito. Ingat ingat lang po dahil tama ang sabi mo nasa atheists board tayo.

Concentrate ka nalang po sa debate ninyo ni Unrealdummy dahil sabi ko nga po sa inyo sa unang post ko I'm not into debate nong mag post ako. I just quoted Unrealdummy dahil nabanggit nya ang Christianity's Bible. It so happen lang po na nagreact ka dahil na quote ko ang challenge nang Quran tungkol sa falsification test.

Hindi po ganon ang sinabi nina dummy at element; ang sinasabi nila na hindi parin sila convinced kahit may falsification test ang Quran. hindi nila sinabi na "hindi iyang
falsification test ang pagbabasehan para maging salita nang Diyos ang
isang aklat" In fact inamin nga nila na walang silang aklat na maipapakita na tulad ng Quran past present at future.

So kung hindi sila kombensido sa may falsification test, sa anong logical reason sila makokombensi sa bible na wala na ngang falsification test, di pa magkasundo ang mga kristyano mismo kung ilang aklat nga ba ang kinasihan?

yun po ang punto brad.

Hindi po ako nagrereak, sinasabi ko lang po ang daloy ng dialogue namin dito. In fact nasa same side tayo, theists' side kaya kakampi dapat tayo dito diba? Kelangan lang natin gawing logical at hindi circular ang reasoning natin kasi itong mga ateyesta hindi naniniwala sa mga scriptures natin. Kaya kung may gusto natin ipresenta dito bilang ebedens kelangan yung hindi nila nasususpalpal kasi matinik mag-isip ang mga ito.

Peace!

Jewel wrote:
I dont know if i would smile or not - What do you call a person who doesnt believe that there is God no matter what his reason is? - Washing your hands cant cover the fact that Islamic stand is better than atheists' stand.

I think your problem is you're treating me like an anti-theist which I am not. I only lack the belief in any god just like a new born baby. And as I said, you can't compare Islam to atheism because atheism doesn't hold any beliefs in god while Islam does. If you want you can compare Islam to Christianity, but again that doesn't prove anything.

Jewel wrote:
You are also wrong that Muslims dont consider atheism as a religion; misconception. In islam any way of life is a religion no matter how and what you call it to be.

I'm not referring to Islam's definition of religion. I'm referring to general meaning of religion which is based on a belief system.

Jewel wrote:


Have you seen him who has taken his whims and desires to be his god? 25:44

So you still have a God tho your God is not like our God - it is still a religion

Mmmm where did that come from? I don't know of any god. I don't have any beliefs about any god. And no, I don't treat my whims and desire to be my god because my whims and desires obviously originated from me. But I'm giving anyone a chance to present their case. And to respect their case, I'm going to give my greatest amount of skepticism I can possibly give as a token of showing how important the subject is.

I assumed that you are an atheist because you dont believe that there is God tho you are open for that possibility. But for the moment, you are still an atheist because you dont believe in God. That's it.

Do you think new born babies believe in god? Treat me like a stranger who just heard the word "god" for the first time and there you are introducing me the concept of god.

Okay lets wait nalang po natin ang sagot nang mga Atheist sa continuation nang topic ninyo.

Gaya nga nang sabi ko nag quote lang ako dahil sa comparison nitong isang atheist sa Quran at Bible. Since hindi naman sila naniniwalang may Diyos, I think hindi talaga sila ma coconvince kahit pa may falsification test ang kahit alin sa aklat na inirereprenta nating theist. I'll just hang this conversation between the two of us in this post.

Anyway watch mode nalang uli.

Peace din po!

Amigo wrote:Okay lets wait nalang po natin ang sagot nang mga Atheist sa continuation nang topic ninyo.

Gaya nga nang sabi ko nag quote lang ako dahil sa comparison nitong isang atheist sa Quran at Bible. Since hindi naman sila naniniwalang may Diyos, I think hindi talaga sila ma coconvince kahit pa may falsification test ang kahit alin sa aklat na inirereprenta nating theist. I'll just hang this conversation between the two of us in this post.

Anyway watch mode nalang uli.

Peace din po!

Hi Amigo,

Comparisons are being made because these books are being presented as evidence. Evidences are subject to scrutiny and examination. Nontheless, you're right, I won't accept a book as evidence. No wise god will transmit his divine words thru a corruptible book.

Ano po sa tingin ninyo @vril is the wise way that the God should do to transmit his divine words?

It shouldn't even be through 'words'. If He's the one true wise God that He is claimed to be, He could've done something more compelling than using books to 'jumpstart' His program. Thus avoiding confusions, and refraining the skeptics from using their God-given skeptical minds.

Not unless that's part of the Plan.

Namaste!

I wish He sent his message by blogging and gave each person an iPhone4. Kaya kaya ni God ang ganyan o may limit ang powers niya?

Amigo wrote:Ano po sa tingin ninyo @vril is the wise way that the God should do to transmit his divine words?

carve it on the moon..... or how about form words using galactic dusts!..

Ateo wrote:I wish He sent his message by blogging and gave each person an iPhone4. Kaya kaya ni God ang ganyan o may limit ang powers niya?

pede kaya Ipad na lang?

vril wrote:

carve it on the moon..... or how about form words using galactic dusts!..

So that the God by using moon as the medium for transmitting his divine words wow!.... and your are correct the galactic dusts can be use as medium for transmitting words too.

element_115x wrote:It shouldn't even be through 'words'. If He's the one true wise God that He is claimed to be, He could've done something more compelling than using books to 'jumpstart' His program. Thus avoiding confusions, and refraining the skeptics from using their God-given skeptical minds.

Not unless that's part of the Plan.

Namaste!

If shouldn't even be through 'words'. What do you think is the more compelling way this God should do?

What if wala na lang message si God? Do you think human civilization will collapse kung walang Bible o Quran? We will just figure out our laws and practices without being guided by the wisdom of Leviticus, he he he.

Why can't the 'message' BE the whole of Creation itself?

Why do things have to 'particularly' and 'specifically' involve us humans anyway?

What if wala na lang message si God?

Then he is a God of silence. He,he,he!

Do you think human civilization will collapse kung walang Bible o Quran? We will just figure out our laws and practices without being guided by the wisdom of Leviticus, he he he.

Hindi naman Bible o Quran ang foundation of human civilization. May mga tao din naman kasi na civilized kahit wala iyang dalawang yan.

Amigo wrote:

If shouldn't even be through 'words'. What do you think is the more compelling way this God should do?

We can only speculate and use our imagination!

Wow! the more compelling way pala is speculate and use imagination..