Total Depravity

Yidda said in old Barm:

Total depravity is the Calvinist false doctrine that the fall from grace of Adam and Eve caused mankind to be totally corrupted, able to do nothing good, so that free will cannot choose anything that is moral. Calvinists even hold that human nature itself ceased to be made in the image of God due to original sin.

In Catholic teaching, free will, and human nature in general, is weakened and harmed by original sin, but not utterly corrupted. Catholic teaching is that human nature, after the fall, remains good and continues to be an image of God. Thus, even without grace, human nature, being good in itself even after the Fall of Adam and Eve, can do acts that are morally good, but not deserving of eternal reward, without grace.

Yidda wrote:

Total depravity is the Calvinist false doctrine that the fall from grace of Adam and Eve caused mankind to be totally corrupted, able to do nothing good, so that free will cannot choose anything that is moral. Calvinists even hold that human nature itself ceased to be made in the image of God due to original sin.

In Catholic teaching, free will, and human nature in general, is weakened and harmed by original sin, but not utterly corrupted. Catholic teaching is that human nature, after the fall, remains good and continues to be an image of God. Thus, even without grace, human nature, being good in itself even after the Fall of Adam and Eve, can do acts that are morally good, but not deserving of eternal reward, without grace.

Romans 3
11There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

12
They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one

If Total depravity is not a biblical teaching, can you explain the verses above.

If you are saying that "In Catholic teaching, free will, and human nature in general, is weakened and harmed by original sin, but not utterly corrupted. Catholic teaching is that human nature, after the fall, remains good and continues to be an image of God. Thus, even without grace, human nature, being good in itself even after the Fall of Adam and Eve, can do acts that are morally good, but not deserving of eternal reward, without grace"

How then will you reconcile your statements above regarding after the fall, humans were not utterly corrupted and remains supposedly good, with the plain pronouncements from the Holy Scriptures that no one is good and firmly supported by other parallel texts in the Scriptures?

Romans 3:9-10 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin. As it is written: “ There is none righteous, no, not one;

Romans 3:18 “ There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

Romans 3:23 "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

Romans 8:7-8 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Ephesians 2:1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins

2 Corinthians 4:4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.

Therefore the goodness of an act by fallen people that you are talking about, as far as God is concern, are in fact not good at all.

go now Yidda you may answer their questions here, since this is an extended forum of evangelicals. I'm sure some of them would read and continue the discussion here since right now the old Barm is not functioning well.

Esther wrote:

Romans 3
11There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

12
They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one

If Total depravity is not a biblical teaching, can you explain the verses above.

That passage is a quote from the Psalms.

[Psalm 13] (14)
{13:1} Unto the end. A Psalm of David. The fool has said in his heart, “There is no God.” They were corrupted, and they have become abominable in their studies. There is no one who does good; there is not even one.
{13:2} The Lord has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men, to see if there were any who were considering or seeking God.
{13:3} They have all gone astray; together they have become useless. There is no one who does good; there is not even one.
{13:4} Their throat is an open sepulcher. With their tongues, they have been acting deceitfully; the venom of asps is under their lips. Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.
{13:5} Their feet are swift to shed blood. Grief and unhappiness are in their ways; and the way of peace, they have not known.
{13:6} There is no fear of God before their eyes.
{13:7} Will they never learn: all those who work iniquity, who devour my people like a meal of bread?
{13:8} They have not called upon the Lord. There, they have trembled in fear, where there was no fear.
{13:9} For the Lord is with the just generation. You have confounded the counsel of the needy because the Lord is his hope.
{13:10} Who will grant the salvation of Israel from Zion? When the Lord turns away the captivity of his people, Jacob will exult, and Israel will rejoice.

The passage refers to:
(1) the extent of the sinfulness of the world before Christ. All (the sons of men) were sinners, and although grace was available, many still sinned gravely.

(2) the particularly grave sinfulness of certain persons, all who work iniquity, who do not call upon the Lord. This particular 'all' is not all of humanity, but all who reject the Lord.

The distinction between these two groups proves that total depravity is false. For if all were totally depraved, there would be no distinction. To the contrary, all are sinners, but some sin much more gravely.

Then the last part of the passage refers to the salvation to be offered by Christ, who grants salvation from Zion. And this brings sinners, even grave sinners, to repentance. In the Calvinist view, even the saved are totally depraved; they don't view saving grace as making the human person like Christ; they see grace as good, but human nature as still evil. The saved person, in the Calvinist view is entirely passive, and is essentially unchanged.

The Catholic view is that human nature is good, analogous to bread, and that saving grace and actual grace raise human nature to supernatural goodness, making us like Christ, just as bread is consecrated and becomes Christ.

In the Calvinist view, human nature is evil, like rotten food, and even the saved persons is not essentially changed. Some rotten food is thrown into the garbage (Hell) and other rotten food is saved for no good reason (into Heaven). But there is no fundamental difference between the two.

Esther wrote:If you are saying that "In Catholic teaching, free will, and human nature in general, is weakened and harmed by original sin, but not utterly corrupted. Catholic teaching is that human nature, after the fall, remains good and continues to be an image of God. Thus, even without grace, human nature, being good in itself even after the Fall of Adam and Eve, can do acts that are morally good, but not deserving of eternal reward, without grace"

How then will you reconcile your statements above regarding after the fall, humans were not utterly corrupted and remains supposedly good, with the plain pronouncements from the Holy Scriptures that no one is good and firmly supported by other parallel texts in the Scriptures?

Romans 3:9-10 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin. As it is written: “ There is none righteous, no, not one;

Romans 3:18 “ There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

Romans 3:23 "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

Romans 8:7-8 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Ephesians 2:1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins

2 Corinthians 4:4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.

Therefore the goodness of an act by fallen people that you are talking about, as far as God is concern, are in fact not good at all.

These verses speak of the evil of sin, not human nature. All are sinners, so we lack righteousness. But this does not imply total depravity. And some of those verses refer only to 'all' within certain limits, such as I pointed out in the previous post: all who work iniquity, or all who do not call upon the Lord. Since some do call upon the Lord, and since Scripture says that certain men, such as Abraham, Job, and Daniel, are holy. Then we would misinterpret those select verses, if we did not consider their meaning alongside many other verses.

All are sinners, but all are also human persons made in the image of God. And that is why all sin is hypocrisy. The good human person does what is evil, sinning, and thereby contradicting his own good nature. And that is why persons who lack Christian teaching can still know right from wrong, and thereby be culpable for their sins, because their sins are contrary to their own good nature.