A debate challenge to Yidda

Theophilus wrote this at the old public square:

Theophilus wrote:

I challenge Yidda, a fellow Catholic, in a series of debates regarding Predestination. Here are the topics that I offer to be
formally disputed between the two of us:

1. That Election by Grace unto Salvation is not based upon God's foreknowledge of what men would do, but based solely upon God's good pleasure and secret will alone. Merits leading to eternal life are not the cause of Election but rather the effects of Election. (As St. Augustine puts it: "they were not elected because they will be so, but in order that they might be so").
   
2. That God is Just in Predestinating some unto Salvation.
   
3. That the two statements above is in conformity with the Catholic teaching.
   
4. That God reprobates people not according to anything in the man reprobated, but on God's secret will alone. That this divine reprobation, is not the cause of sin in the person reprobated, but the cause of the abandonment of God (or God's passing over the non-elect, leaving them in their own sinful passions). And most importantly, that this Reprobation does not destroy God's Justice.
   
5. That man has a "free-will" but it is so entirely at the disposal of
   our Sovereign God, that He turns or inclines it whenever and wherever He
   pleases.
   

(All of these I will affirm by sound reasoning, Scripture, by appealing to St. Augustine's and St. Thomas Aquinas' writtings, and other Catholic resources, as references.)

The main purpose of this debate is disprove Yidda's arrogant accusation that my view on Predestination is heretical and un-Catholic. By appealing to St. Augustine's and St. Thomas' writings, I wish to expose that my position is no different than theirs, and that accusing me of heresy would in effect accuse the said fathers of heresy as well.

extension of his challenge is this:

Theophilus wrote:
I do not belong to any sect. I belong to the Holy Apostolic Roman Catholic Church. Augustinianism is not a sect, but a school of thought within Catholicism. Please learn your facts. Btw, are you accepting my challenge or not?

that's the exact problem with you. You cannot put into your own wordswhat the church Father really meant instead your hiding on their statement.

Why don't you just post in here in a single post your contradiction against Roman Catholic teachings and gladly , I'll refute them too in a single post. Instead of quoting me sentence by sentence and copypaste the writing of the church Father wooosh.

post in any forum even to the new forum your contradiction (it is time now to unmasked yourself)...Like for example your exclusive salvation. Which is not for Roman Catholicism.

And by the way what you challenge are unsound, just too proved your a Roman catholic, you must first go to basic of Theology so that we could understand its other.

Let me post too my theology on what you said and see if they have similarity: St Augustine and St. Thomas believed that God election is Eternal, Unconditional and Immutable.When eternal the Catholic Church with our two great Theologians Augustine and St. Thomas are teaching that God's Election is Eternal because God is Eternal, since man is not
Eternal and the world is finite, salvation occurs in the finite condition of man. Unconditional - in this also include good works.Part of the grace being given God to the elect is the "Gift of Perseverance". that is the capacity to do works.


bye Augustinian

you can look what transpire at the bereans old, why it is post in here.- yidda

Theophilus wrote:

Now you are running away. How coward of you. I knew it. You are really allergic to the teachings of the fathers. Why don't you just unmask yourself and admit that you are not a Catholic at all? How can a true Catholic accuse the fathers of heresy? How?

It's indeed very easy to accuse, but to prove the accusation is a different story.
So what now? Run away! Faster! Run as fast as you can! Run and save face!

No. see my refutation on your challenge on these new forum as I have said too in old BARM. I only debate with the true Roman Catholic to grow in faith. Since you try to be catholic by deceit. wait for my next post.

You are invited to listen sir.

peace

St. Augustine de Hippo trivis: Alam nyo ba, si San Agustin ng Hippo ay isa sa mga Early Church Fathers. Si San Augustin ng Hippo pati San Tomas Aquinas ay isang karangalrangal na Santo.

Uy, 29 days nalang pala before the Feast of Saint Augustine of Hippo.

Ash Ketchum wrote:St. Augustine de Hippo trivis: Alam nyo ba, si San Agustin ng Hippo ay isa sa mga Early Church Fathers. Si San Augustin ng Hippo pati San Tomas Aquinas ay isang karangalrangal na Santo.

Uy, 29 days nalang pala before the Feast of Saint Augustine of Hippo.

tama ka diyan

Feast of Saint Augustine of Hippo, August 28. Doctor of Grace. Patron saint of students for the priesthood. He was killed on August 28, 430, when his city was invaded by Vandals. He is most famous for the writing of his Confessions.

Ash , Sana may mag invite sa atin sa fiesta niya no'? Dito sa amin may pa- contest pag - fiesta , mga carnaval and most of all mga cute Majorettes marching with bands and their baton twirling during parades.

Reply to the 5 point challenge


Those five points together constitute a severe heresy, denying the role of free will in salvation, and making God appear to be unjust. Although Theophilus states that God is just, he nevertheless proposes that God chooses to send some persons to Hell, and other persons to Heaven, regardless of their free will and their sins.

It is as if God arbitrarily chooses who is saved and who is punished forever in Hell. Theophilus says that God's choice is based on His secret will, but essentially he proposes no basis for the choice, therefore it is arbitrary.

The teachings of Catholicism are based on Tradition, Scripture, Magisterium. But the author only bases his claims on his own
interpretation of Augustine and Aquinas, and he contradicts the teachings of the Council of Trent:

The Synod furthermore declares, that in adults, the beginning of the said Justification is to be derived from the prevenient grace of God, through Jesus Christ, that is to say, from His vocation, whereby, without any merits existing on their parts, they are called; that so they, who by sins were alienated from God, may be disposed through His quickening and assisting grace, to convert themselves to their own justification, by freely assenting to and co-operating with that said grace: in such sort that, while God touches the heart of man by the illumination of the Holy Ghost, neither is man himself utterly without doing anything while he receives that inspiration, forasmuch as he is also able to reject it; yet is he not able, by his own free will, without the grace of God, to move himself unto justice in His sight. Whence, when it is said in the sacred writings: Turn ye to me, and I will turn to you, we are admonished of our liberty; and when we answer; Convert us, O Lord, to thee, and we shall be converted, we confess that we are prevented by the grace of God.

CANON IV.-If any one saith, that man's free will moved and excited by God, by assenting to God exciting and calling, nowise co-operates towards disposing and preparing itself for obtaining the grace of Justification;that it cannot refuse its consent, if it would, but that, as something inanimate, it does nothing whatever and is merely passive; let him be anathema.

CANON VI.-If any one saith, that it is not in man's power to make his ways evil, but that the works that are evil God worketh as well as those that are good, not permissively only, but properly, and of Himself, in such wise that the treason of Judas is no less His own proper work than the vocation of Paul; let him be anathema.

CANON IX.-If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema.

CANON XVII.-If any one saith, that the grace of Justification is only attained to by those who are predestined unto life; but that all others who are called, are called indeed, but receive not grace, as being, by the divine power, predestined unto evil; let him be anathema.

CANON XX.-If any one saith, that the man who is justified and how perfect soever, is not bound to observe the commandments of God and of the Church, but only to believe; as if indeed the Gospel were a bare and absolute promise of eternal life, without the condition of observing the commandments ; let him be anathema.

CANON XXII.-If any one saith, that the justified, either is able to persevere, without the special help of God, in the justice received; or that, with that help, he is not able; let him be anathema.

CANON XXIV.-If any one saith, that the justice received is not preserved and also increased before God through good works; but that the said works are merely the fruits and signs of Justification obtained, but not a cause of the increase thereof; let him be anathema.

CANON XXV.-If any one saith, that, in every good work, the just sins venially at least, or--which is more intolerable still--mortally, and consequently deserves eternal punishments; and that for this cause only he is not damned, that God does not impute those works unto damnation; let him be anathema.

CANON XXVI.-If any one saith, that the just ought not, for their good works done in God, to expect and hope for an eternal recompense from God, through His mercy and the merit of Jesus Christ, if so be that they persevere to the end in well doing and in keeping the divine commandments; let him be anathema.

CANON XXXI.-If any one saith, that the justified sins when he performs good works with a view to an eternal recompense; let him be anathema.

CANON XXXII.-If any one saith, that the good works of one that is justified are in such manner the gifts of God, as that they are not also the good merits of him that is justified; or, that the said justified, by the good works which he performs through the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ, whose living member he is, does not truly merit increase of grace, eternal life, and the attainment of that eternal life,--if so be, however, that he depart in grace,--and also an increase of glory; let him be anathema.



~ The goal of every theologian should be to teach the faithful on earth, just as the great Doctors of the Church taught them (and continue to teach them), with simplicity and clarity, with love, faith, hope, and all the virtues, by word and by example. It is a daunting task that is impossible to fulfill without the grace and providence of God.

huwag ninyo aawayin si Yidda magagalit si ako!!!

catholicarchie wrote:huwag ninyo aawayin si Yidda magagalit si ako!!!

Uhmmmmm...totoo ba yan Archie boy?

Nyahahaha! Sana po single pa si....Esther...

Teka hindi ito lovechat, debate challenge ito hehehe!

Ay sorry po Kowya Harby. Kasi sila e yon kaagad nabasa ko.

harballah wrote:Teka hindi ito lovechat, debate challenge ito hehehe!

Lolssss...

Kaw talaga Marc puro ka love eh..

MarcCatholic wrote:Nyahahaha! Sana po single pa si....Esther...

ako ayaw mo? madalas maging single, 5 times ng nabalo hi hi hi