Did God create evil/devil?

MarcCatholic wrote:Kuya Jewel it seems you appear to be strawman. We get what you say but you didn't get us. We don't claim that we create our own new evil thoughts but it could (Note that the thought is what we are talking here, not the creation of evil because of course it "existed" since the beginning!). The intensity of the term create here is just like saying we make but we can't deny the fact that it's still a creation. We are very aware that those examples are already existing pero pinatos ko na nga yong hiling mo diba. Nagbigay ako ng totally new example. We are very aware also that evil happened long time ago. May sinabi ba kaming nauna kami? Wala kayo lang po ang nag-aakusa. What we mean here is we eventually create evil thoughts and the reason why we were able to make an evil thought is because evil is already available, not claiming that evil is our new invention. Now, we're getting too far. The topic is Did God create evil? Let's go back to that. I say no because evil is the absence of goodness. God cannot create His None-Self. Thanks.

Yidda wrote:What is evil? Evil is a deprivation of some good. Moral evil is a deprivation of some good required by the love of God, neighbor, self.

Since evil does not really exist(it lacks the quality of created things), it is not created and is not a part of creation. It is an absence contrary to the will of the Creator.

Free will does not imply evil. The Virgin Mary had free will and yet never sinned. The majority of the holy Angels did not sin and have never sinned, even though they have free will. Their number is exceedingly immense.

God is not the first cause of evil because endowing created persons with free will does not directly cause sin.

The first cause of anything is its immediate and direct cause. So the decision to sin is the first cause of evil, and this is attributable to the person who knowingly and freely chooses to sin.

In moral theology, the word evil is used in a different way than in common speech. Commonly, we use evil only for the worst acts of immorality. But moral theology uses the world evil for any and all sins, actual as well as objective, and even for various types of harm that can occur. This usage is consistent with the term's use in the Bible.

The same word (evil) is used in the Bible for moral evil versus various kinds of harm or disaster.

example:

miscarriage: physical evil, not moral evil, not objective sin, not actual sin

abortion: objective sin, moral evil, physical evil

Physical Evil: starvation
Moral Evil: omission of charity by not distributing food by the wealthy to the poor.

vril wrote:

Hi Yidda,

How do you explain this verse?

Isaiah 45:7 in the King James Version reads, “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.”

Jewel wrote:

Naku patay tayo dyan, kaya mo pala mag-create ng human being, watta shock!!!

Sinasabi ko na nga ba eh, quote ng quote ng homonyms at inaakala na identical lang ang meanings hehehe

Hindi porke magkatunog ang pronounciation ay identical and meaning lalo na sa context fred - Procreate means reproduction, hindi creation hehehe

Human being pa kaya ang kaya mong gawin eh kahit pakpak ng langaw ay di mo kayang gawin hehehehe

Sablay na sablay talaga yan fred


.

I still disagree because what you mind is capable of is thinking of ideas, consolidating ideas putting them together. As I said before, creating in this context is to bring something not existing in to existence. You cant call it your creation if it already have existed before. Evil already existed even before you were born, so how would you call it your creation, that a big sablay there.

Your ignorance of something doesnt mean that that something is not existing elsewhere - that's the bottom line there.)

That's the problem there because of the same reason; you cant call something to be your creation if it already have existed before you because the creator must have existed first before his creation.

I wont delve into the scriptures for now in order to narrow the discussion, because as soon I say something about your bible, the topic would be widen; I dont think that your bible is correct in calling those who follow God's commands to be gods (sometimes there are tricks in using a capital G, and small g for God). what is that small "g" for god, im sure it is not the same context and meaning as capital "G" God.

Funny question indeed. Is evil a creator? Of course not! Evil and good are not personalities my friend fred, so how did you even think to ask that question? Evil is a state of being not good hehehe

Wrong because of the same reason; the creator must have existed before the creation, not the other way around. Did the saying exist before the child was born or not?

Mali ka parin fred, and you are twisting/adding something to the idea given. What I said is that if you think of evil and you did not do it, you cant be blame for that because that is part of your option (obey or disobey). Now if you say 'consenting' is another stuff added to mere thinking of it - in that case you will be blameworthy.

It is like saying that in the options of the question, you consented that the incorrect option should be the correct answer despite knowing that it is incorrect, even if you did not choose that answer, you are still wrong.

The correct position is that, in the options, I know that (b.) is the correct answer, while (a. & c.) are incorrect. I will not be blamed for thinking that (a.&c.) are incorrect. But if I did not choose (b.) and leave the question unanswered because I "consented" "supposed" that either (a. or c.) is the correct answer, then my answer is still wrong or incorrect

See, huli ka na, sabi mo "It is not good but it's not evil (satan)" hehehe. Disobeying God is not evil to you? wow, what kinda concept is that.

BTW fred, dont be confused with the words "evil" and "devil" because they are not the same, they are just homonyms. Evil is a state of being not good, immoral, ect, while devil means the one who does evil

Hindi naman kasalanan (sin) ang pinag-uusapan dyan kundi evil. you can and everybody who has got free will can commit/do sin kasi that's part of your actions.

The question was, would Satan be able to disobey God/do evil if God did not include evil as one of the options? Yes or no?

It is like asking, if all the choices given are correct answer, would you be able to choose an incorrect answer, yes or no?? ---see dyan kayo sumablay.

How can a God create evil if He has not that system in Himself. You can not give what you do not have...Paano mo bibigyan ng kendi ang anak mo kung ala kang kendi...see what your reasoning brings you

See the gigantic fallacy here. If you manufacture candies, it doesnt mean that something of your body or soul is a candy - see the point.

Kung bibigya mo ng candy ang anak mo, it doesnt mean na ang candy ay parte ng katawan o kaluluwa mo hehehehe

So God doesnt have evil in and of himself because he is different and distinct from his creation, and evil is but part of his creation. What God has given are options for your free will (obey which is good, or disobey which is evil)

Uhmmm...di ka naman siguro baog ano Jewel? Kung hindi ay dapat alam mo ang ibig kong sabihin na human being.

Reproduction? Ano ang nire-reproduce mo? Remember each one is unique person. No persons are the same with respect to quality and behaviour.

Same quality, style, design etc....they maybe same but not identical my friend jewel.

That's your own interpretation and that's definitely incorrect one.

You did not get the question mi amigo. Evil = satan (noun). Now please answer the question.

And who created it first before Rizal did it?

Walang twisting dyan jewel. I'm just telling the truth. Ang question dyan paano mo inisip? Now kung walang consent ay wala na tayong issue dyan and no need to expound on this more.

When Allah say to you "Jewel, magdasal ka...hindi mo nagawa at nakatulog ka" ---- have you done evil now?

Yidda wrote:

{45:7} formans lucem, et creans tenebras, faciens pacem, et creans malum: ego Dominus faciens omnia hæc.

{45:7} I form the light and create the darkness. I make peace and create disaster. I, the Lord, do all these things.

~ The word ‘malum’ as contrasted with peace is not ‘evil,’ but rather harm or disaster.

Jewel wrote:


Sablay ka talaga dyan fred, huwag ka nang humirit maraming sumusubaybay satin, mapapahiya ka lang.

Procreating means reproduction, begetting -- It is not creating hehehe

Kunting basa lang sa definition fred, maliliwanagan ka na sa issue na yan. Huwag kang malinlang sa homonyms hehehe

Irrefutable ang stand ko dyan fred, di mo kayang tumbahin yun - the creator must have existed first before its/his creation - you cant have it simultaneous or vice versa heheheh

Im pretty sure with it; your bible has got so many inconsistencies in and of itself and in science - i think that's very well known to everyone today.

Dont insist on you clear mistakes fred. Evil is not Satan. Satan is a DOER of evil. Satan is a personality, while evil is not - hehehe

Whoever did it before rizal, it is 100% sure that it is not the boy because the boy came/existed later - that's the bottom line there

Walang twisting dyan jewel. I'm just telling the truth. Ang question dyan paano mo inisip? Now kung walang consent ay wala na tayong issue dyan and no need to expound on this more.

That's ridiculous fred. If you see a beautiful hot woman and you think of, in your mind, seducing her, but you did not carry it out - That's not a sin yet; it is a normal human male reaction. What makes it a sin is if you continue to think of it and carry it out.

That's nonsense and weird fred - if your God decreed that you'll commit sin but you didnt, that means your God is powerless and because his decree fails.

Dapat pag-isipan mo muna ang mga sasabihin mo fred kasi parang low batt na battery mo hehehe

Fly away skyline pigeon fly.

Evil becomes a sin only when it is willfully done fred - so dont be confused with the two - ang layo naman ng sagot mo - ilapit mo naman ng konti.

You are the big mali there amigo hehehe

when you give a candy to your son, that doesnt mean that candy is part of your self.

If you give a golden ring to your mom, that doesnt mean that some part of your body or soul is a golden ring hehhehe

That's pretty ludicrous idea fred

vril wrote:

Is harm or disaster not evil?

Yidda wrote:

Physical evil.

The term physical evil does not refer to evil in the usual sense of the world. In common parlance, evil means severe immorality. But in moral theology, moral evil is used for even a slight immorality, and physical evil is used for what is not immoral at all.

Christ's suffering on the Cross and His death were physical evils, in other words "harm". He suffered severe harm for our sake on the cross. It is sometimes moral to permit physical evil for the sake of helping others.

vril wrote:

Physical evil as you described causes deaths. Is this not immoral? God creates harm and disaster which results to deaths of innocents. How is this translated as moral act?

Yidda wrote:

No.

God allows suffering (natural or physical evil) for good and necessary reasons:

to prepare us to comfort others (see II Cor. 1:4-6);

to teach us to trust in Him and not in ourselves (see 1:9;4:7,16, 18; 12:1-10);

to turn our hearts toward heaven (see 5:1-4);

to develop maturity (see James 1:1-12);

to discipline us for sinful behavior (see I Cor. 11:30);

and to judge wickedness (see Ps. 37:12,13).

It would be terrifying if God does not control evil(Is 45:7) because that would imply that evil forces can resist and overpower God. Expect suffering. Realize that in a fallen world suffering is the abnormal normality (see 1 Pet. 2:12-14)

why is there suffering?

As a result of the Fall from grace of Adam and Eve, God requires us to seek and find salvation, in the midst of sin and suffering. This requirement is not a punishment. Eternal salvation is so valuable that the sufferings and efforts that we must make, in cooperation with grace, in order to obtain it are a very small price to pay. God chooses to allow us to suffer due to the sin of Adam and Eve as a way for us to participate in our own redemption.

fredms3 wrote:

Uhmmm ayaw sumagot ng diretso, ang daming komento. Alang epek yung dami ng komento bro...ulit:

Ano ang nire-reproduce mo?

Talaga? At sino ang creator ng table na yan siga nga?

If that's the case then why argue with us, and at the same time trying to interpret our bible as if you're an authority on it ----- isn't that absurdity?

Lolsss...anyway...so can you now answer the question --- Can satan create good things?

At sino nga ang nag-create kung hindi si Rizal ---- simpleng tanong lang to jewel at isang simpleng sagot lang ang hinihingi natin dito. Sino?

Ridiculous? If you understand what i'm talking about then there's no point of expounding on this issue of consenting to sin.

What? God decreed us to commit sin? ---- Did Allah say that in your Quran?

Naku jewel, dapat ikaw ang mag-isip sa pananaw mong yan....

Di naman malalim ang sinabi ko ah bro. Simple lang yan, ulit: ---Satan and sin cannot be separated -- do you agree or not?

Now, Ang Freewill ba freewill pa rin kung ala yung negative side at puro positive side lang ---- Yes or no?

Sisimplihan ko lang ang tanong ha jewel:

Magbibigay ka ba ng pagkaing me lason sa anak mo?

MarcCatholic wrote:Mas maigi pa sigurong ilagay na natin to sa 1 on 1 thread para meron ng debate for the first time ang new barm. Lumalayo na din kasi. Balikan natin ang paksa. Did God create evil? Yes or no po tayo at explain.

Jewel wrote:

Ayan, ayaw mo na makinig ng paliwanag, hindi ka na naghahanap ng truth hehehe

Uulitin ko, pro-creating doesnt mean creating okay? It simply means begetting. Everybody would agree with me that your parents begotten you, but no one would agree with you that your parents created you. Nalilito ka lang sa terms na "procreate" at "create" - hindi po yan the same banana boy hehehehe

Nagpresume ka na kaagad na creation mo ang table, pinag-uusapan pa nga eh. Ang korek na tanong dyan ay sino ang nag-assemble ng table na yan, kasi nga ang mga materials ay mula sa ibat-ibang bagay hehehe

I argue with because I did not say that all of your bible verses are wrong. Some are wrong, some are correct, so I have to accept the correct ones and reject the wrong ones. If something is proven to be wrong from it, then you have to accept it, if you are not a blind follower.

God has given me intellect, so I used my logic/mind to understand things.

If I am not the authority to interpret your bible, then neither you, how about that? Your bible doesnt say/specify who would interpret it, so where is the question of authority here?

In fact the OT is not your scripture, it's by the Jews but you included it in your canon and make a different interpretation on it? - That's a pretty big back fire on you right?

CAN?? Yes of Course! Satan believes that there is only one God, and he knows it very well - is that evil for you?? hehehe

The point is that evil and satan are not the same banana - You cant escape on that mistake fred. Satan is a DOER of evil, so satan is a personality while evil is not, therefore they are not one and the same.

Simpleng sagot bakit di ma gets? mahirap ba intindihin tagalog ko? Sori ha taga mindanao kasi ako eh, hindi talaga ako expert sa tagalog kaya pinipilit kong gamitin ang poor english ko dito.

The point is that, since the child existed after the saying, then he cant be the creator of it because the creation cant precede it's creator because the creator is the one who brings the creation in to existence, not the other way around.

So it doesnt matter kung kilala ba ang unang gumawa, ang issue dyan ay Did the child created it or not, hindi Who created it first - Oh malinaw na ba?

Thanks for agree with me. talagang di mo kayang lusutan ang issue na yan. Merely thinking of evil is not a sin - consenting and or doing it is an act of choice and that makes it a sin.

naku, ang layo naman ng sagot heheh, ilapit mo naman fred.

What I was refuting is you premise that God would decree to you to commit sin, yet the decree did not materialized because you fall asleep - that would make your God a powerless i--d--i--o--t god because his decree fails. So I was refuting on the failed decree not on the logic of the decree. The decree is of course illogical.

Fly away, away, and away na talaga yan fred.

Satan is not sin, and sin is not satan - Satan is the doer, and sin is the act - ganyan ka simple yan.

Satan believes that there is one true God because he knows it full well, is that evil according to you?

So you are agreeing with me now that free will is of two sides, good and evil, that's good! So you are basically refuting yourself because you said that satan and sin cant be separated, yet you clearly admitted that free will has positive and negative sides.

If you cant separate satan and sin, then that means that he is deprived of free choice, therefore God cant blame him - see your big fallacy there?

Oh bakit napunta sa lason, di ba candy yun hehehehe

Hindi yan ang sitwasyon freed kasi by God giving us free will, the choice of good or evil, that doesnt mean he is poisoning us. the free will is to test our faith.

Go back to my example about a teacher who is giving an exam to his students. the teacher purposely put a correct and an incorrect choices in order to test/know who among the students have understood the lesson which he discussed.

That's pretty clear fred. Think about it okay?

Thanks

MarcCatholic wrote:Ahehehehe. Honestly e pabor ako sa'yo sa debate na yon hindi about sa doktrina kundi sa way of argumentation. Anyway, sa tingin ko kayong dalawa ni kuya Fred ang magdebate para makita ng malinaw ang mga puntos since kayong dalawa naman ang talagang friends dito. Ahehehe! Sa totoong lang kasi nakakatamad kaya basahin ang mga mahahabang quotations.

Pero di mo pa sinagot ang tanong ko kuya Jewel. Diba ayaw mo ng candy dahil wala nga naman sa nature ng giver yon? E ano naman po yong binigay kong halimbawa na abstract. Yong love. Yong idea. Yong intelligence. Diba malinaw na bahagi ng tao to? Kapag wala kang idea hindi ka makapagbibigay noon. Sasabihin mo na ang nuclear ay tubig na green pero hindi ito totoo dahil hindi mo pala napag-aralan ang basic physics noong High School.

fredms3 wrote:Debate?

Well, this site as well as other site are means to my relaxation and enjoyment. I'm open to debate on this topic but not at this point in time friends.

And once i take it, the basis of the discussion would be the Bible.

As for now, let's enjoy our exchanges without time constraint, okies.....

MarcCatholic wrote:Kuya Jewel hindi ko po tinutukoy yong creation tungkol sa sharing na yan. Ang pinupunto ko ay yong giving na part of you na hindi mo pwedeng ilahat nalang kung hindi siya pwede sa candy. Ang sa akin ay yong argument lang about giving which is also applicable of being part of you, not creation. Yon lang pinabulaanan ko. Ibang usapin na po yong sa creation. Strawman po kayo. Hindi ko naman sinasabing creation na.