Re: Abortion: When does life really start?

by Esther Tue Aug 17, 2010 10:46 am

vril wrote:

Agree. The mother is as innocent as the unborn child.

"I would not commit the smallest sin, not even to redeem the whole world from Hell." ~ St. Catherine of Sienna

by korrill Tue Aug 17, 2010 11:17 am

Yidda wrote:God and His Church desire that all persons strive to avoid sin, especially grave sin, and so the Church teaches that we must not commit the grave sin of direct abortion. The end of saving the mother's life does not justify the means: the killing of an innocent child. We must all prefer death over grave sin.

Physicians should do all that they can morally do in order to save the life of both mother and child. But no one is justified in killing an innocent child,not even to save a life.

Should someone murder an innocent person to save the lives of several innocent persons? Certainly not. It is never moral to use an evil means to a good end. Direct abortion is murder, and so it is not justified, even if both lives would otherwise be lost.

"The Church proposes the example of numerous Saints who bore witness to and defended moral truth even to the point of enduring martyrdom, or who preferred death to a single mortal sin. In raising them to the honour of the altars, the Church has canonized their witness and declared the truth of their judgment, according to which the love of God entails the obligation to respect his commandments, even in the most dire of circumstances, and the refusal to betray those commandments, even for the sake of saving one's own life." Pope John Paul II, Veritatis Splendor n. 91.

True. And virtually all physicians do what they can to save the lives in their care. However, sometimes that includes terminating a pregnancy.

The issue here now is perspective: how the church views the situation vs. how physicians may view it. In the case I presented, the church saw it as saving the mother's life by killing her un-born child. However, physicians see it as removing a (technically) dead fetus and preventing the death of the mother.

Abortion is only recommended by physicians when there is absolutely no other way to save both. Some seem to have the idea that abortion is something that is just readily recommended by physicians. It's not. It takes careful evaluation of all possible options and the determination that no other possibility exists before a physician would recommend such a thing.

In the case that was given, the child in the womb had no further hope of making it to birth or to viability. If it did, then we wouldn't be discussing such a case. It cannot survive if it is extracted from the mother's body and it will die if left inside the mother. The child will die, no matter what avenue is taken. The only difference is that in the first option, the mother lives while in the second, the mother dies with the child. The concern now shifts to the mother where a way exists by which her life may be preserved.

And that's where the church and other people (like me) differ. Like I said, I support the church's campaign against frivolous abortions. But I find their opposition to emergency abortion to save the mother as distasteful.

by korrill Tue Aug 17, 2010 11:27 am

Yidda wrote:It is the infallible teaching of the Church that direct abortion is always gravely immoral. So the answer is: very sure.

The Church teaches that we can never directly kill the prenatal in order to save the life of the mother. So if the pregnancy is endangering the life of the mother, abortion is nevertheless gravely immoral.

If the mother's life is endangered by a disease, such as cancer, and if the prenatal's life cannot be saved, then the cancer can be treated, even though the treatment of the cancer will indirectly kill the prenatal. This act is permissible because the treatment of the cancer is not a direct killing of the prenatal.

In a case where the pregnancy itself endangers the mother, abortion is direct killing and therefore gravely immoral, because the child is not a disease. The act of abortion in this case is not a treatment for a disease, but a type of murder.

Well, I've always had an issue with the "infallible teachings" of the church. Especially since such infallible teachings once included such things as this:

We, Robert Cardinal Bellarmine, have heard that Mr Galileo Galilei is being slandered or alleged to have abjured in our hands and also to have been given salutary penances for this. Having been sought about the truth of the matter, we say that the above-mentioned Galileo has not abjured in our hands, or in the hands of others here in Rome, or anywhere else that we know, any opinion or doctrine of his; nor has he received any penances, salutary or otherwise. On the contrary, he has only been notified of the declaration made by the Holy Father and published by the Sacred Congregation of the Index, whose content is that the doctrine attributed to Copernicus (that the earth moves around the sun and the sun stands at the center of the world without moving from east to west) is contrary to Holy Scripture and therefore cannot be defended or held. In witness whereof we have written and signed this with our own hands, on this 26th day of May 1616.

-- Cardinal Bellarmine, in a Certificate regarding the Roman Catholic Church's punishment of Galileo for holding the position that the Earth orbits the Sun

by element_115x Tue Aug 17, 2010 12:37 pm

One thing i'm definitely getting from all these is that aspiring husbands-to-be of hardcore Catholic woman should think twice about marrying them. Razz

I think it's safer for the men's sanity to marry protestants instead in light of all these revelations.

It seems the plight of the husband is but secondary -- if given any consideration at all -- in such a situation.

Namaste!

by element_115x Tue Aug 17, 2010 12:48 pm

korrill wrote:

...
The issue here now is perspective: how the church views the situation vs. how physicians may view it. In the case I presented, the church saw it as saving the mother's life by killing her un-born child. However, physicians see it as removing a (technically) dead fetus and preventing the death of the mother....

This is exactly what i mean when i keep pointing out that it's all a state-of-mind. It's all a matter of perspective. Everything here is only happening in our minds, regardless of the actual situation that's happening at the end of the scalpel! Smile

by element_115x Tue Aug 17, 2010 1:07 pm

Esther wrote:

"I would not commit the smallest sin, not even to redeem the whole world from Hell." ~ St. Catherine of Sienna

Hmmm.... so if such a situation ever happens to you (i pray it won't Smile

), you're willing to sacrifice yourself so's not to be involved in the super seriously sinful act of terminating your pregnancy?

by Esther Tue Aug 17, 2010 1:36 pm

element_115x wrote:

Hmmm.... so if such a situation ever happens to you (i pray it won't ), you're willing to sacrifice yourself so's not to be involved in the super seriously sinful act of terminating your pregnancy?

yes of course.... my guardian angel(like in your avatar) will give me strength to do it.

in fact, I don't agree that there are only two options given on that hypothetical situation of korril. One can pray. Many persons in hopeless circumstances have prevailed against all odds by praying. There is even the example of a war, an invasion, which was stopped by praying the Rosary.

It is secular thinking to say that you must either commit direct abortion convincingly or put everyone's life's at risk.

Christ-like thinking: Eternal life awaits the innocent. And killing an innocent offends God who is infinitely good.

by **Ateo** Tue Aug 17, 2010 1:40 pm

Annunaki yang guardian angel ni Element. I think Annunaki si Element.

by element_115x Tue Aug 17, 2010 1:52 pm

Esther wrote:

yes of course.... my guardian angel(like in your avatar) will give me strength to do it.

in fact, I don't agree that there are only two options given on that hypothetical situation of korril. One can pray. Many persons in hopeless circumstances have prevailed against all odds by praying. There is even the example of a war, an invasion, which was stopped by praying the Rosary.

It is secular thinking to say that you must either commit direct abortion convincingly or put everyone's life's at risk.

Christ-like thinking: Eternal life awaits the innocent. And killing an innocent offends God who is infinitely good.

Thanks for directly answering. Smile

I just hope your husband in this case can take the heat of the situation... he'll be back to square one again, it would seem. But again, the Protestants will always be there. Smile

by Esther Tue Aug 17, 2010 1:53 pm

we would like to remind korril to remain on the topic, bringing up different issues and controversies like that of Gallileo is I believe to be ad hominem or calumnies. more so: of the fact that he is ignorant on what are the teachings - on infallible statements in Catholiscism.

by element_115x Tue Aug 17, 2010 1:53 pm

Ateo wrote:Annunaki yang guardian angel ni Element. I think Annunaki si Element.

The true originals hehe Razz

by Esther Tue Aug 17, 2010 2:00 pm

element_115x wrote:

The true originals hehe

what are annunaki? Abortion: When does life really start? - Page 5 Icon_biggrin

don't tell me they are flying aborted creatures.

by element_115x Tue Aug 17, 2010 2:22 pm

Esther wrote:

what are annunaki? don't tell me they are flying aborted creatures.

Let's not get off track, @Korrill and @Yidda still has the floor. Smile

Besides, you're not yet ready to know the TRUTH! hehe.

Back to topic...

by korrill Tue Aug 17, 2010 2:26 pm

Esther wrote:we would like to remind korril to remain on the topic, bringing up different issues and controversies like that of Gallileo is I believe to be ad hominem or calumnies. more so: of the fact that he is ignorant on what are the teachings - on infallible statements in Catholiscism.

An ad hominem is when an arguer attacks the person rather than the argument - just like what you did (highlighted portion). It can also be seen in the other reply you gave to me:

Esther wrote:2.The issue is not about legalizing abortion. It's about how the church
does not even recognize the difference between a necessary abortion and a
frivolous abortion.

No you are just being blind or hostile to what ever the church teach.

You can google many sites here on how the church deals with different cases.

for the complete article on my post click here:
http://www.priestsforlife.org/media/interviewisajiw.htm

Another example has been provided by Yidda:

Yidda wrote:really or the "cherry picking one" I said too , "I know what I say and the teachings of the church" when in your case you do not know the teachings and still have the guts to say I cherry pick. (it's actually ad hom) or you are only irritated by what I said on the real stand of Aquinas supported by magisterial documents..

plus your source came from - Religious' Coalition for Abortion Rights.June 1978 propaganda pamphlet entitled "ABORTION: Why Religious Organizations in the United States Want to Keep it Legal

The falsehoods quoted have been bandied about by devious pro-abortionists for the last century, and the time has come to lay them to rest once and for all. Most importantly, the Catholic Church has never "approved of" or "condoned" abortion in any part of its history.

I wonder why you used this kind of sources.

And if you actually followed my discussion with Yidda, you'd know that one of the questions I raised was how sure she was that the position of the catholic church is the position that god wanted. To this she reiterated the infallible teaching of the church based on its interpretation of scriptures.

So in case you missed my point for posting it, know that that post is directly challenging the notion of infallibility that what the church teaches or how it interprets scripture is indeed what is true or right.

by Esther Tue Aug 17, 2010 2:55 pm

I do not think you get my point! You were raising a topic on catholiscism like for example that of what you said - in infallible statement of the Gallileo issue. Which I think is in-appropriate: first do you know what are infallible statements are? what are Dogmas what are doctrines? Bringing an issue which you knew little and untimely, makes you no different from people who have an anti- catholic sentiments.

by Esther Tue Aug 17, 2010 3:03 pm

element_115x wrote:

Thanks for directly answering. I just hope your husband in this case can take the heat of the situation... he'll be back to square one again, it would seem. But again, the Protestants will always be there.

that is why I posted my requirements in whom I will choose. Abortion: When does life really start? - Page 5 Icon_smile

by korrill Tue Aug 17, 2010 3:20 pm

Esther wrote:I do not think you get my point! You were raising a topic on catholiscism like for example that of what you said - in infallible statement of the Gallileo issue. Which I think is in-appropriate:

Well, that's your opinion. I already gave the reason why I raised the issue.

Esther wrote:first do you know what are infallible statements are? what are Dogmas what are doctrines? Bringing an issue which you knew little and untimely, makes you no different from people who have an anti- catholic sentiments.

I'm very much familiar with the history and the distinctions of church infallibility, dogma and doctrines. They are of little concern to me at this point.

What I aim for now is the question: How do you know that the church's stand on abortion is really what god wanted? How sure are you that god wants you to let a woman - who could have been saved - die.

This with reference to the parallel between the two cases: the church's interpretation of scripture.

===

Just thought I'd point it out:

You've accused me of using ad hominems and you've repeatedly accused me of things such as being anti-catholic.

But one thing you haven't done is to actually address the arguments I presented.

Do try to remember what an ad hominem is.

by element_115x Tue Aug 17, 2010 3:33 pm

Esther wrote:

that is why I posted my requirements in whom I will choose.

Well good luck with that! Smile

But so that you'll know -- @Korrill is actually trying to save your lives here if such medical situation happens with you, by making you have a 'second look' on your fervently held beliefs.

by Esther Tue Aug 17, 2010 3:38 pm

element_115x wrote:

Well good luck with that! But so that you'll know -- @Korrill is actually trying to save your lives here if such medical situation happens with you, by making you have a 'second look' on your fervently held beliefs.

saving lives by killing innocent lives actually.

by element_115x Tue Aug 17, 2010 3:58 pm

Esther wrote:

saving lives by killing innocent lives actually.

Yes! This is about the one who already has an experience with life -- and with a partner (husband) at that. Not the unborn who we cannot even determine yet if he wants to be born at all in this cruel world to start with. Smile

What if the baby grows up to be a homicidal killer! Or a devilish atheist.

by fredms3 Tue Aug 17, 2010 4:32 pm

Pwedeng maging alang wentang tao dito sa mundong ibabaw at pwede rin namang magandang halimbawa sa ating kapwa.

Mahirap din pala ang lagay ng mga matitinong doktor sa ganitong sitwasyon.

by vril Tue Aug 17, 2010 4:40 pm

Esther wrote:

yes of course.... my guardian angel(like in your avatar) will give me strength to do it.

in fact, I don't agree that there are only two options given on that hypothetical situation of korril. One can pray. Many persons in hopeless circumstances have prevailed against all odds by praying. There is even the example of a war, an invasion, which was stopped by praying the Rosary.

It is secular thinking to say that you must either commit direct abortion convincingly or put everyone's life's at risk.

Christ-like thinking: Eternal life awaits the innocent. And killing an innocent offends God who is infinitely good.

Hi Esther,

What if the mother is your mother ? What would you choose? Your mother or your dogma?

by Esther Tue Aug 17, 2010 4:56 pm

element_115x wrote:
Yes! This is about the one who already has an experience with life -- and with a partner (husband) at that. Not the unborn who we cannot even determine yet if he wants to be born at all in this cruel world to start with. What if the baby grows up to be a homicidal killer! Or a devilish atheist.

You must understand that that there is a little life nestled in the womb of a mother, a life sent by God himself. To think differently is to become plaything of the devil. There must be no discussion about this point in the sense that you must never allow yourself to consider, even for a moment, that a pregnancy does not equal life, a person, a divine plan. This is irrefutable truth.

by Esther Tue Aug 17, 2010 5:07 pm

vril wrote:

Hi Esther,

What if the mother is your mother ? What would you choose? Your mother or your dogma?

BOTH!
I don't agree that there are only two options given on that hypothetical situation of korril.

So I will go to the third option...

One can pray. Many persons in hopeless circumstances have prevailed against all odds by praying. There is even the example of a war, an invasion, which was stopped by praying the Rosary.

It is secular thinking to say that you must either commit direct abortion convincingly or put everyone's life's at risk.

Christ-like thinking: Eternal life awaits the innocent. And killing an innocent offends God who is infinitely good.

Now If "I am the mother" I would refused direct abortion even if you are the prenatal in my womb.

by fredms3 Tue Aug 17, 2010 6:00 pm

Esther wrote:

BOTH!
I don't agree that there are only two options given on that hypothetical situation of korril.

So I will go to the third option...

One can pray. Many persons in hopeless circumstances have prevailed against all odds by praying. There is even the example of a war, an invasion, which was stopped by praying the Rosary.

It is secular thinking to say that you must either commit direct abortion convincingly or put everyone's life's at risk.

Christ-like thinking: Eternal life awaits the innocent. And killing an innocent offends God who is infinitely good.

Now If "I am the mother" I would refused direct abortion even if you are the prenatal in my womb.

I admire you for that sis Esther

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