Abortion: When does life really start?

vril wrote:

For all catholics , yes.

But in common law, only a person can be murdered. Therefore, abortion is not murder unless one considers the fetus to be a person. According to Roe v. Wade, the word "person" does not include the unborn, and a fetus does not have equal status with the mother until the point of viability, or when the fetus can exist outside of the mother's womb. In addition, according to the common law in criminal matters, the definition of a "person" is one who has been born alive.

http://www.publiceye.org/ifas/fw/9407/myths.html

If it is not murder by your own definition, then what is it? You carefully planned to curtail the formation of one precious life in case of contraception, and when there is already life in the womb you carefully kill her/him, then call it what? Give me some nice-sounding word please aside from the word "abortion".

When it comes to beliefs I don't have to rely on some fallible declarations of "experts". I have our Lord Jesus to teach us what is right and wrong, what is truth and lie, through His Church.

adanedhel wrote:

If it is not murder by your own definition, then what is it? You carefully planned to curtail the formation of one precious life in case of contraception, and when there is already life in the womb you carefully kill her/him, then call it what? Give me some nice-sounding word please aside from the word "abortion".

When it comes to beliefs I don't have to rely on some fallible declarations of "experts". I have our Lord Jesus to teach us what is right and wrong, what is truth and lie, through His Church.

Can't call it any other way. Sorry. Let's deal with reality. Jesus's teachings never solved anything. So it ain;t practical to apply it.

element_115x wrote:So saan na ba napupunta ang spirit ng mga namamatay na unborns???

I believe that prenatals who die in the womb, and infants who die without baptism, certainly go to Heaven, because their deaths unite them with Christ dying on the Cross for our salvation, which is the source of the effectiveness of all baptism.

I think that perhaps prenatals to first to an upper level of Purgatory, not to be punished, but to learn about Christ and to receive the development that they were denied on earth. Then they soon go to Heaven to be happy forever. So we can pray for these young souls, and perhaps our prayers benefit them as they learn and develop in Purgatory.

"I believe..." "I think that perhaps..."

Yidda, are you talking about what you think or what the Church teaches about dead prenatals and purgatory? Your so-called "waiting time in purgatory" seems nice although possibly unsupported by your Church and the Bible. And whatever happen to limbo? That previous waiting chamber has been discarded?

Ateo wrote:"I believe..." "I think that perhaps..."

Yidda, are you talking about what you think or what the Church teaches about dead prenatals and purgatory? Your so-called "waiting time in purgatory" seems nice although possibly unsupported by your Church and the Bible. And whatever happen to limbo? That previous waiting chamber has been discarded?

As far as I know no Council has decided the question of what happens to infants who die without formal baptism (water and words). The Council of Trent taught that Baptism is necessary for salvation, but that aside from formal Baptism, there is also the non-formal Baptism of desire.

Saint Thomas taught that there are three forms of Baptism, and this teaching is generally accepted by the Church:

1. of water (the formal Sacrament)
2. of desire (also called a Baptism of the Spirit)
3. of blood (typified by the martyrs who died while Catecumens)

The Church has for a very long time called the infants who died in the persecution, when Herod was trying to kill the Christ-child, the Holy Innocents. This implies that they did not go to Hell, since persons who die innocent do not go to Hell, and it implies that they died in a state of grace, since they are called holy. Therefore, I would draw the conclusion that these infants went to Heaven.

However, it is still something of an open question in the Church as to what happens to prenatals and infants who die without formal Baptism.

My opinion is that they receive a Baptism of blood, prior to death, by virtue of their impending death, which unites them with Christ on the Cross, Who is the source of all baptism. So they die in a state of grace, and go to Heaven (perhaps with a brief stay in the upper level of Purgatory).

The term Lmbo is used variously to describe different ideas about life after death.